Why I love and hate the Leica M

[jaapv]

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🤣🤣 Corius’ joke has come to life. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Weirdly, my lucky M shots mostly appear to be properly focussed...

That's why they are lucky. The second seagull shot is also heavily stopped down, so it even didn´t require luck.

Show us a series of pictures of a dynamic scene with moving subject with a fast lens at open aperture and a hit rate >= 7/10 and I believe in your AF like RF focusing skills.

[evikne]

I'm a bit puzzled by the direction this discussion has taken. I assume that most people here know what an M is (and what it isn't).

Do you want an M or not?

[pgk]

17 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Show us a series of pictures of a dynamic scene with moving subject with a fast lens at open aperture and a hit rate >= 7/10 and I believe in your AF like RF focusing skills.

Ummmm. Its not that simple. It is possible to learn the ability to predictively focus manually and this will certainly increase hit rates. But AF will struggle to focus on any specific area which the photographer requires it to focus on if a fast lens is used wide open in any dynamic scene. Neither will yield anything like 100% success rate in such circumstances. The AF system will probably yield more 'acceptably' focussed images, but they may not be focussed on the precise area as required by the photographer. 

[pgk]

1 minute ago, evikne said:

I'm a bit puzzled by the direction this discussion has taken. I assume that most people here know what an M is (and what it isn't).

Whilst Leica still continue to market the M as a 'street' camera, its purpose will be confused. An M is really a camera which is capable of high precision results (so 'street' isn't really its forte) when used within its operational envelope. But building M lenses which are too fast (f/0.95/1.25), or focus too close for RF use, confuses the marketplace. Most long term users of the M understand its strengths and weaknesses and use M cameras accordingly. But today's world always seems to want to uprate things when doing so is neither logical nor desirable.

FWIW I would say that a ~25MPixel M camera with good higher ISO capability (again within the RF tolerance of lower light/contrast levels), weather proofed as far as possible, is probably a sweet spot. But from a marketing point of view it possibly doesn't meet expectations. At some point hopefully realism is going to impinge though.

[jaapv]

48 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

That's why they are lucky. The second seagull shot is also heavily stopped down, so it even didn´t require luck.

Show us a series of pictures of a dynamic scene with moving subject with a fast lens at open aperture and a hit rate >= 7/10 and I believe in your AF like RF focusing skills.

From a shot that has the subject near parallel to the plane of focus with a camera one would not use beyond ISO 400 without getting noise and needs at least 1/1000 on an 180 equivalent lens for a shot like this? You have no way of telling and the situational argument points firmly the other way. That is grasping at straws and creating fake arguments.

I must start playing the lottery. I’m sure to win millions. 

[costa43]

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I don’t think there has been a better camera invented at documenting your life and world around you than the Leica M, mine has become an extension of me. It’s a bit like putting on my shoes when I walk out the door, I just take it everywhere. Even when I’m buying some eggs up the road, my family definitely think I’m mad!. I think every decision we make can be worked back to how it makes us feel. I for one enjoy the process of shooting as much as the final image, if not more. It makes me infinitely more aware of my surroundings even when walking the same roads I walk everyday, I appreciate the little things around me and focus on the present moment. Love the M. No other camera I’ve owned gives me the same feeling. 

In its purest form it is a window to the world around us with 3 exposure settings and its strength is in this simplicity. This is why it would be lovely if Leica could give us a really basic digital camera once again🤣 triple resolutions, visoflexes, metering modes, function buttons etc, no thank you! 
 

 

 

[pippy]

55 minutes ago, pgk said:

...Most long term users of the M understand its strengths and weaknesses and use M cameras accordingly. But today's world always seems to want to uprate things when doing so is neither logical nor desirable...

I couldn't possibly agree more.

Here's a suggestion; why don't those folks who would have Leica adopt the Mirrorless EVF IBIS AF 96fps Video approach simply petition SONY et. al. to make their top-of-the-range models look like a Leica M3?

Philip.

Edited December 8, 2024 by pippy

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

From a shot that has the subject near parallel to the plane of focus with a camera one would not use beyond ISO 400 without getting noise and needs at least 1/1000 on an 180 equivalent lens for a shot like this? You have no way of telling and the situational argument points firmly the other way. That is grasping at straws and creating fake arguments.

The subject (bird) was near parallel but not the water surface (and ground) from which I estimate the DOF. Also ISO 400 in combination with 1/1000s shutter at this lighting conditions tell me that it was significantly stopped down. I think, here are enough other enough experienced users who are able to evaluate who is creating fake arguments here, but this is not the niveau on that we should continue the discussion.

vor einer Stunde schrieb evikne:

I'm a bit puzzled by the direction this discussion has taken. I assume that most people here know what an M is (and what it isn't).

Do you want an M or not?

I already answered for what I want the M but the question is, what the thread opener (who did not tune in since opening this thread) thinks now based on the discussion.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb pippy:

Here's a suggestion; why don't those folks who would have Leica adopt the Mirrorless EVF IBIS AF 96fps Video approach simply petition SONY et. al. to make their top-of-the-range models look like a Leica M3?

So you could also ask for a petition to stop selling Noctilux lenses (especially the 75/1.25) or a Summilux 90 for RF cameras.

Most people know about the limits of the "RF envelope" but the thread opener - after spending about 35.000$ - seemed to have different expectations.

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

I think, here are enough other enough experienced users who are able to evaluate who is creating fake arguments here,...........

 

3 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Most people know about the limits of the "RF envelope" .............

When a post calls on a multitude of others, states firmly what their opinion would be, and uses their opinion to support their personal argument, that argument is on a slippery slope downhill.

[pippy]

30 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

So you could also ask for a petition to stop selling Noctilux lenses (especially the 75/1.25) or a Summilux 90 for RF cameras...

Why on Earth should anyone do such a thing? Do you believe that Leica should stop selling such lenses because some of the people who buy them lack the ability to use them 'properly'?

I don't own a 75mm Noctilux but do have two 50mm f1.1 lenses and have no problems whatsoever when using them at max. ap. / min. focus. and judging by the number of photographers here who also use ultra-fast lenses wide open I'm hardly in the minority.

As has been said countess times in this thread; a Leica M isn't the best tool for many types of photography and possibly not the camera which some photographers should choose to own if they cannot adopt their modus operandum to the system.

Philip.

[T I N O]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb anonymoose:

The eye AF (human, animal, and bird) on my A1 (and previously A7S III with human/animal) is scary good. 

I'm not into bird photography at all, just heard from a friend the other day how far (especially Sony cameras) have come in regards to AF.
Just googled "Sony bird eye AF", and the first image result was this shot on flickr by Marc Galer.
If you click on the arrow symbol in the lower right you can view the original size, where you look at fine details of the eye's iris. 

Really do not want to step on anybody's toes, but why is there even a discussion whether you can also shoot stuff like that with an M?
Of course you can, to a degree, but modern AF is sooo much better.. it's not "somewhat sharp" (if you're really good and lucky), it's "tack sharp", very reliably.
I mean c'mon.. the point is moot 💁‍♂️

[lct]

An M camera is not supposed to make the sharpest images on moving subjects. Have a look on HCB images for instance. Many of them are even not in focus. If the aim is to shoot a seagull for archiving purpose, i'd rather take my Sony, otherwise what i'd like to transmit is the movement of the bird and @jaapv's nice image above shows well what an M camera can do for that.

[costa43]

My 7 year old daughter tells me it’s ok to not agree as we are all different. Let us hope we are mature enough to understand that a difference of opinion should never turn into conflict. 

Anyone who disagrees that the M is not the best is wrong though🤣
 

[Markey]

People today are probably more ambitious in terms of what they want to capture and what result they deem to be acceptable.

I`ve been using M`s since the `80`s and love using them but....

I shoot a lot of equestrian sports and although I can employ techniques to ensure that I get a sharp frame I feel that its a rather pointless exercise .

The M isn`t the correct tool for that  job although it still could be the one that you like using .

Threads like this always remind me of Pythons Four Yorkshire men sketch

 

[jgeenen]

Every camera I had and have triggers "likes" and "dislikes" (Why should I love any camera? Or hate it?).

What I love about the Leica is its compactness and its traditional operations. What I don't like is its lack of versatility and the steep price tag. I did not mention image quality for a good reason - for my needs image quality has reached the peak already years ago. For that reason I am personally not interested in medium format sensor cameras from Hasselblad, Fujifilm or Leica. Heavy, pricey, overpowered and way too modern (and still not versatile enough). For that reason I am still using MFT equipment: lightweight, moderate costs, image quality still ok and very, very, very versatile. 

[JoshuaR]

This is a weird discussion.

Yes, the M system is not as good as a modern AF camera at taking burst shots of seagulls focussed on the birds' eyes as the fly toward the camera.

No, not everyone aspires to make such photographs; many people don't need that sort of capability. Although some do! But not everyone.

No, Leica should not stop selling Noctilux lenses because some people try and fail to use them to photograph Formula 1 or running toddlers or whatever. (Although I have photographed my running children at f/1.2.)

Yes, there are people who spend huge sums on Leica gear when they've never even used an M before. They eventually sell their barely used equipment and the rest of us buy it used at a discount while Leica Camera AG reports its highest profits ever.

It was ever thus. This stuff is Leica 101, no need to rehash it again.

Edited December 8, 2024 by JoshuaRothman

[jaapv]

Especially as I was able to take it precisely at the right moment, when the meniscus of the water at its feet was at its maximum. AF almost certainly would have missed it. 

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[Cattoo]

Shooting moving subjects with an M, with a 50mm lens is definitely doable.  And you don't need luck.  Practice will do.

Here's three I shot with a 50mm summilux of a girl posing on the steps at Times Square at night.  She was moving around, posing randomly for another photographer.  I just happened to be standing there, so snapped off a few without really thinking about it.  

Yeah.  It's doable.  

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Edited December 8, 2024 by Cattoo