Why I love and hate the Leica M

[jaapv]

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6 hours ago, fotografr said:

In my early days with a pair of M3 ds bodies and three lenses, I was having a very difficult time when trying to focus quickly on moving subjects. Someone who had much more M experience gave me a tip that proved invaluable. He told me to always keep my lens set to infinity so that when I had to react quickly I would always be turning the focus ring the same direction, as opposed to starting from some unknown point and working the focus ring back and forth until the images aligned. It's one of the best pieces of advice I ever got about using the M effectively.

I apologize if someone has already mentioned this in the thread. I don't want to read through 14 pages of comments to find out.

It is inded an essential point that had not been mentioned yet in this thread (but often in similar threads over the years)

[anonymoose]

1 hour ago, Velo-city said:

Could I ask what Sony you use? I’ve been looking to go the other way maybe to the a7cr but never used Sony, so be interesting to hear from an M user. 

I've only been an M user for ~2 weeks, so take this with a grain of salt.

I went A6500 (APS-C) --> A7S --> A7S III --> A1. I was happy with the A7S III (especially the great low-light performance), but the Q2 I purchased at the time took such higher quality pictures than the Sony that I felt forced to upgrade the A7S III to something with higher resolution. The only camera that maintained the video capabilities I needed (e.g. 4K120) was the A1, so I bought that.

There isn't a good way to compare the cameras to be honest. I suspect you'd miss a lot about the M experience if you switched to Sony. Of course you'd really appreciate Sony's fantastic AF capabilities, but there would be something missing from the experience. My A1 is a robotic surgical instrument where I can mindlessly take mostly great pictures with little thought. My M11 is an art brush where I'm forced to be fully present and am solely responsible for the outcome.

I did buy an M-mount adapter for my A1 and put both cameras on a tripod to see if I preferred one body or the other using the same 35mm Summilux lens. My wife and I both preferred the colors and detail that came out of the M11 over the A1 across all f-stops. Attaching A1 vs. M11 comparison pictures taken at f1.4 for your reference below (both straight from camera no edits other than applying respective camera color profiles). I won't label them, but leaving metadata so you can see which you prefer in an unbiased way.

If you do buy a Sony camera, I highly recommend the Zeiss 55mm f1.8 -- it is the only lens I've found with AF that renders a scene in a Leica-like way (with depth and some imperfection). I bought it for $500 used and I prefer the pictures I capture with it more than from the ~$1,500 35mm f1.4 GM I also own even though the GM is a phenomenal lens. I'd sooner recommend a Q3 (what I owned before the M11) to someone that wants better AF and doesn't need the rangefinder experience.

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Edited December 13, 2024 by anonymoose

[Velo-city]

Thanks for the info. 
I’ve used an M barely longer than you but having a bit of a dilemma at the moment…..

We have a Q3 i can use too, but I didn’t really find the af amazing on it so far. I’d rather not have fixed lens as I’ve already got a fixed lens Fuji. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Velo-city

[anonymoose]

5 hours ago, Velo-city said:

Thanks for the info. 
I’ve used an M barely longer than you but having a bit of a dilemma at the moment…..

We have a Q3 i can use too, but I didn’t really find the af amazing on it so far. I’d rather not have fixed lens as I’ve already got a fixed lens Fuji. 

The AF on Sony cameras is definitely way better than the Q3, but I didn't find myself reaching for the A1 in place of the Q3 so I could say the Q3's AF was serviceable enough. Have you considered renting a Sony + lens to spend a week with it and see how you like it?

[Altair]

You are right in that this is probably a good subject for a dedicated post in the future.

 

As I am using this post to document my journey with the M, I will say for now that I took the advice stated here and pulled out my Visoflex 2 and 50 0.95, though i had promised myself I would stick to the rangefinder for a while until I master it I wanted to do some testing.

 

Here is what I did, practiced with both the 35 APO and 50 Noctilux using all three of the viewing methods, rangefinder, Visoflex 2, and back screen using different subjects and different lighting conditions.

 

My conclusion is that I, to my own surprise, preffered the rangefinder on the 35 APO even wide open focusing was simple and quick, and the whole package was lighter and perfect for street photography.

 

With the Noctilux wide open, the rangefinder was mission impossible, with the screen and pain, with the visoflex 2 a manageable challenge with a reasonable success rate even for portraits. For still life on a tripod all three where fine. As an aside, it is surprisingly how different of a camera the 50 Noctilux and Visoflex 2 make the M11P, it's basically an SLR at this point, huge and unwieldy compared to just the M and APO 35.

 

I will be using the Visoflex 2 this upcoming week with the Noctilux, excited to see the results. I do hope some portraiture is possible

 

 

 

[Velo-city]

6 hours ago, anonymoose said:

The AF on Sony cameras is definitely way better than the Q3, but I didn't find myself reaching for the A1 in place of the Q3 so I could say the Q3's AF was serviceable enough. Have you considered renting a Sony + lens to spend a week with it and see how you like it?

Thanks. Yes I’ll do some demos and depending on the outcome either rent or just get one used. 
mum more familiar with Nikon (not that it really matters) and liked the look of the zf in many ways, but I really like a few more megapixels for cropping etc. 

To be honest if my Fuji 100 was FF I’d probably just revert fully back to it, as overall I just think it’s a nicer camera all round and doesn’t do anything weird plus I’m far less precious with it. I will in the meantime anyway. 

[username]

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27 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

if my Fuji 100 was FF I’d probably just revert fully back to it, as overall I just think it’s a nicer camera

..not FF (but cropped MF) - maybe the GFX 100RF coming next spring will be an interesting option for you?

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, Velo-city said:

Thanks. Yes I’ll do some demos and depending on the outcome either rent or just get one used. 
mum more familiar with Nikon (not that it really matters) and liked the look of the zf in many ways, but I really like a few more megapixels for cropping etc. 

To be honest if my Fuji 100 was FF I’d probably just revert fully back to it, as overall I just think it’s a nicer camera all round and doesn’t do anything weird plus I’m far less precious with it. I will in the meantime anyway. 

I've been on several trips where I've taken my fuji X100VI and M11M & M11P, the great shot rate from the M11's is much much higher than from the X100. I don't know why, something about the approach and process it drives.

The only thing I struggle with still is narrow depth of focus shots (50 or 90mm wide open) in street situations where someone is moving rapidly, there something like the xpro3 that I also have is better. Far from perfect though as the AF is quite able to miss! The most reliable in this situation is the 5dMk4 with the 50L or 85L but then you can be seen from space.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[Velo-city]

Sounds like the M has worked out much better for you than me. I’ve now come to the conclusion that the mindset I used to think maybe comes from each camera is actually there anyway and I think now I’m more conscious of that I can apply it to anything.   Maybe I had too high expectations of the M or maybe I need another round on the journey with a different model but I just don’t think it’s worth the price tag for me, and plus I’m just way more precious with it than I would’ve been with my other cameras. Despite the constant talk of ‘build quality’ I think the m11 marks more easily and is more fragile than my DSLRs that have taken huge abuse and still look almost new weirdly. But like you I wouldn’t really ever think of carrying one  or the lenses anywhere for leisure unless I had a really specific reason to do it. 
But of course there’s still something unique about the design of the M and where it’s right it’s really nice - specifically the overall size and sensor resolution. 
 

maybe I’ll change my mind after going back to the Fuji for a week or two.  Not sure I’d ever carry both but might just alternate over Christmas and see where I land. Not really in a rush as it’s all just ‘things’ and approaching Christmas I’m always more conscious how lucky many of us are to have health and homes let alone all these luxuries…. 
 

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by Velo-city

[DadDadDaddyo]

20 hours ago, anonymoose said:

1. I'm seeing the actual scene vs. a digital recreation of the scene. I feel more present as a result, which is important when I'm photographing my daughter, wife, family, etc.. I equate it to being in a meeting room with someone vs. being on a Zoom call with them. The other day I captured a photo of my daughter crawling for the first time and I saw the scene as it played out instead of feeling like I was watching a video of it.

Aptly put.

[anonymoose]

17 hours ago, anonymoose said:

I've only been an M user for ~2 weeks, so take this with a grain of salt.

I went A6500 (APS-C) --> A7S --> A7S III --> A1. I was happy with the A7S III (especially the great low-light performance), but the Q2 I purchased at the time took such higher quality pictures than the Sony that I felt forced to upgrade the A7S III to something with higher resolution. The only camera that maintained the video capabilities I needed (e.g. 4K120) was the A1, so I bought that.

There isn't a good way to compare the cameras to be honest. I suspect you'd miss a lot about the M experience if you switched to Sony. Of course you'd really appreciate Sony's fantastic AF capabilities, but there would be something missing from the experience. My A1 is a robotic surgical instrument where I can mindlessly take mostly great pictures with little thought. My M11 is an art brush where I'm forced to be fully present and am solely responsible for the outcome.

I did buy an M-mount adapter for my A1 and put both cameras on a tripod to see if I preferred one body or the other using the same 35mm Summilux lens. My wife and I both preferred the colors and detail that came out of the M11 over the A1 across all f-stops. Attaching A1 vs. M11 comparison pictures taken at f1.4 for your reference below (both straight from camera no edits other than applying respective camera color profiles). I won't label them, but leaving metadata so you can see which you prefer in an unbiased way.

If you do buy a Sony camera, I highly recommend the Zeiss 55mm f1.8 -- it is the only lens I've found with AF that renders a scene in a Leica-like way (with depth and some imperfection). I bought it for $500 used and I prefer the pictures I capture with it more than from the ~$1,500 35mm f1.4 GM I also own even though the GM is a phenomenal lens. I'd sooner recommend a Q3 (what I owned before the M11) to someone that wants better AF and doesn't need the rangefinder experience.

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Noticed there was a +30 tint on the A1 and +15 on the M11. Changed those to zero and reattaching below. I still prefer the detail and overall look of the M11 picture. I also think I did a slightly better job focusing on the intended area with the rangefinder than the EVF 😮

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by anonymoose

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Velo-city:

I’ve been looking to go the other way maybe to the a7cr but never used Sony, so be interesting to hear from an M user. 

The A7CR currently comes closest to the M11 due to it's compact and rangefinder-like form factor, sensor, EVF placement etc. You could think of it as a Q3 but with better AF and interchangeable lens (allowing to use also M-mount lenses even with AF when using an appropiate adapter but with disadvantages on some wide-angle M-mount lenses).

The A1 and the upcoming A1 Mk2 are currently the flagship models and still much more compact than those from CaNikon. But they only make sense, when you are also interested in full frame video (8K30, 4K120).

For me, the Noctiluxes are better balanced and way better usable on the A1:

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Especially the Noctilux 75/1.25 ASPH:

 

 

Unfortunately, the 75 Noctilux is too large and too top-heavy to be used with the LM-EA9 autofocus adapter.

Together, they allow me to use the Sony where I hate the Leica and vice versa.

Edited December 14, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com

[anonymoose]

52 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

The A7CR currently comes closest to the M11 due to it's compact and rangefinder-like form factor, sensor, EVF placement etc. You could think of it as a Q3 but with better AF and interchangeable lens (allowing to use also M-mount lenses even with AF when using an appropiate adapter but with disadvantages on some wide-angle M-mount lenses).

The A1 and the upcoming A1 Mk2 are currently the flagship models and still much more compact than those from CaNikon. But they only make sense, when you are also interested in full frame video (8K30, 4K120).

For me, the Noctiluxes are better balanced and way better usable on the A1:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

Especially the Noctilux 75/1.25 ASPH:

 

 

Unfortunately, the 75 Noctilux is too large and too top-heavy to be used with the LM-EA9 autofocus adapter.

Together, they allow me to use the Sony where I hate the Leica and vice versa.

I considered the A7CR as well as the closest thing to an M11/Q3, but with interchangeable lenses and great AF. I feel like trying to make a Sony camera into a Leica is an exercise in futility. It will never look or feel like a Leica and any half-measure to get there will just lead to frustration (for me).

The Noctilux 50 f1 looks almost too good/right mounted on that A1 😱

Edited December 14, 2024 by anonymoose

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor einer Stunde schrieb anonymoose:

The Noctilux 50 f1 looks almost too good/right mounted on that A1 😱

Perhaps, because it was shot with the Noctilux 75 on the M9 😄

[Altair]

20 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

The A7CR currently comes closest to the M11 due to it's compact and rangefinder-like form factor, sensor, EVF placement etc. You could think of it as a Q3 but with better AF and interchangeable lens (allowing to use also M-mount lenses even with AF when using an appropiate adapter but with disadvantages on some wide-angle M-mount lenses).

The A1 and the upcoming A1 Mk2 are currently the flagship models and still much more compact than those from CaNikon. But they only make sense, when you are also interested in full frame video (8K30, 4K120).

For me, the Noctiluxes are better balanced and way better usable on the A1:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

Especially the Noctilux 75/1.25 ASPH:

 

 

Unfortunately, the 75 Noctilux is too large and too top-heavy to be used with the LM-EA9 autofocus adapter.

Together, they allow me to use the Sony where I hate the Leica and vice versa.

That Noctilux and Sony combo is very tempting!

But wait, are you saying there is an adapter that allows AUTO focus with M glass? I must have misunderstood 

[Altair]

I have a Z9 which i use for wildlife, macro, and sometimes portraiture. I am now interested in seeing how the 50 Noctilux 0.95 fares on it. It's a big bulky thing so I can't imagine a situation where I would use it but perhaps if I absolutely fail focusing on the M11 with that lens it could come in handy in very rare situations. The fun of finding out is worth the price of the adapter anyway.

 

I do wish Nikon would have come out with a better ZF offering. The current one is cheap and crippled in terms of megapixels. Would be fantastic if we could get a mini Z8 with a Leica M / Fuji X / Nikon MF form factor 

[lct]

https://techartpro.com/

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Altair:

But wait, are you saying there is an adapter that allows AUTO focus with M glass?

Yes, several times (including their model names). Available as M->E Mount (Sony) as well as M->Z Mount (Nikon).

[S/W]

I haven't read through all the replies, but could it be that you are trying to compare the capabilities of an AF camera with those of an MF camera? I'm not sure if this is really a good idea.

It would be better if you compared the Hasselblad with a camera from the SL series (and in particular the SL3). I don't know the specs or the specification sheet of the M12, but I don't really believe that an M12 will have the same characteristics of an SL3, which has everything you basically favor and also compare to the Hasselblad. The M11 is simply its peer with its wonderful manual lenses. If everything (electronic viewfinder, flip-up monitor) is built in, I don't think it can be the same size (ok, they already said that with the M9, but the Q3 but also the SL3 show that it inevitably gets bigger with a flip-up monitor).

I am very lucky to be able to use both and I realize again and again that each system has its place.

But that's just my 2 cents.

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Hallo,

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[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb S/W:

I haven't read through all the replies, but could it be that you are trying to compare the capabilities of an AF camera with those of an MF camera?

It's not only about AF vs. MF, so you should better read the whole thread (especially how it was opened) before spending another two cents.