Why I love and hate the Leica M

[3D-Kraft.com]

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Ok, here, we can start over with zone focussing etc.

Fact is, that it is almost impossible to nail focus precisely on moving subjects with a Summilux or Noctilux 50 or 75 with an M. Of course you can have a successful hit occasionally by shooting series and moving either yourself or by hoping that the subject moves through the prefocused point while you shoot that series but these old school technics deliver only random hits. I also sometimes enjoy that challenge, but not when I am asked to deliver results.

[jaapv]

Do you really think that I could zone focus a dolphin coming out of a wave? I NEVER use zone MISfocus. Please don't saddle me with that beginner's crutch. How many other examples do you want, not just by me, but by any competent M photographer? Both single shots, normally focused, no series on an M8 with about six shots per minute, on a 90AA... 

[lct]

There are cameras like Canon, Nikon or Sony for sport photography, although i have known an era when sport photogs used to use a Graflex or a Rolleiflex for their job. I have seen Leica Ms then too but rather on sidelines or lockers.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Do you really think that I could zone focus a dolphin coming out of a wave? I NEVER use zone MISfocus. Please don't saddle me with that beginner's crutch. How many other examples do you want, not just by me, but by any competent M photographer? Both single shots, normally focused, no series on an M8 with about six shots per minute, on a 90AA... 

Stopped down like shown in these examples gives you a DOF like a smartphone with fixfocus lens 😉

Show me examples like that taken with the M8 and 90 Summicron at open aperture, where focusing is really a challenge. But if you want to call me incompetent, we can stop the duscussion here.

[anonymoose]

40 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Yes, this is the reason, why I bought an M9 beside the A1 to overcome this boredom 😉

Same here and I must say it is delightfully frustrating to make a good photo with the M11 as compared to the A1 🤣

The satisfaction of a properly focused, properly framed, and interesting photo at f1.4 via RF/MF is quite a shot of dopamine!

Edited December 7, 2024 by anonymoose

[jaapv]

12 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Stopped down like shown in these examples gives you a DOF like a smartphone with fixfocus lens 😉

Show me examples like that taken with the M8 and 90 Summicron at open aperture, where focusing is really a challenge. But if you want to call me incompetent, we can stop the duscussion here.

I'm not calling you incompetent at all, just noting that it is incorrect to assume that others are unable to accomplish something that you don't aspire to.

[jaapv]

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23 minutes ago, lct said:

There are cameras like Canon, Nikon or Sony for sport photography, although i have known an era when sport photogs used to use a Graflex or a Rolleiflex for their job. I have seen Leica Ms then too but rather on sidelines or lockers.

Yes, this applies to all manual focusing. It is irrelevant whether the focus aid is a spilt screen, microprisms or RF. All photographers from the time before AF became common had to be proficient in manual focusing, irrespective of subject dynamics. It seems to be a bit of a lost art, judging some posts on this fourm.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

I'm not calling you incompetent at all, just noting that it is incorrect to assume that others are unable to accomplish something that you don't aspire to.

I have not seen any examples from you that support these claims

Edited December 7, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com

[jaapv]

Well, let's have my wife feeding a Seagull. Tele-Elmar M 135 on M8,  wide open (4.0 180 mm equivalent) I think a Smartphone would give a somewhat different result... I rest my case.

 

1 hour ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Stopped down like shown in these examples gives you a DOF like a smartphone with fixfocus lens 😉

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2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, let's have my wife feeding a Seagull. Tele-Elmar M 135 on M8,  wide open (4.0 180 mm equivalent) I think a Smartphone would give a somewhat different result...

 

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You just wait. The claim will be that the hand is out of focus! 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Well, let's have my wife feeding a Seagull. Tele-Elmar M 135 on M8,  wide open (4.0 180 mm equivalent)

Lucky shot. When you have ten of these shots within a minute, I believe your claim.

[jaapv]

I don't feel a need to be believed, nor do I need more luck than any other photographer. Just keep denying. 😇

[charlesphoto99]

A large portion of photography is 'luck.' And the more one does it, the luckier they get. The skill comes in recognizing and capitalizing on that luck. And more often than not, it's the lucky shots that are the most interesting, because as humans that's what were most drawn to, events that happen out of the extraordinary, out of the conscious realm. 

 

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[jaapv]

Weirdly, my lucky M shots mostly appear to be properly focussed...

Summilux 50 asph 

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Tele-Elmar 135

[pgk]

2 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Fact is, that it is almost impossible to nail focus precisely on moving subjects with a Summilux or Noctilux 50 or 75 with an M.

Exactly. The M is not a suitable camera for such subject matter or with such lenses. As for the 75/1.25, well its outside the envelope of an M wide open (not one of Leica's best decisions but then its a trophy lens which probably worls better on the SL cameras. But, and its a big but, many subjects lend themselves to precise manual focus, in fact I would suggest that potentially the majority of subjects don't require AF at all, but we are used to it. And I do use Sony cameras and no their AF is not always as good as I would like so I have to use them carefully. I use them underwater where there is no option to switch from AF to MF and they can be very frustrating at times - in some ways the old Canon 5D2 was as good if not better because its AF was actually easier to fudge into working as I wanted.

[3D-Kraft.com]

All my shots I took this year with the 75 Noctilux were taken on the Sony A1, where the EVF gives you a much better chance for a hit and where the lens is better balanced (like on the SL). Together with the shots taken with the Sigma 85/1.4 DG DN, these were the best results of this year, but with a significantly higher hit rate and technically better performance of the Sigma. I still don't want to miss the special look of the Noctilux.

Like the 90mm Summilux, the 75 Noctilux is too unbalenced, causes too much RF blockage and gives too random results when used wide open on the M.
So I agree: although offered for the M system, these lenses leave the envelope of a rangefinder M.

Edited December 7, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com

[IkarusJohn]

On 12/1/2024 at 5:54 PM, Altair said:

Be forewarned....this just probably the most useless post you will read this year, and perhaps stretching to the next. Nothing but the ramblings of someone new to M coming from an X2D and Z9 world. I highly recommend you spend your time more constructively somewhere else.

 

With that warning out of the way, I wanted to share my thoughts as a hobbyist who has started taking his photography more seriousely for the last year and exactly one week with an M.

 

I love the idea of an M. Just the right size, build quality is Swiss watches standard, and the pictures, when perfectly framed and just focus, are unmatched. Even compared to a X2D, there is something magical of what an M with the right lens can do. 

 

For me, what the Leica experience is at its very heart, is being able to walk around with a fairly manageable, enjoyable to see/feel/operate package with the capability of producing some of the most strikingly beautiful images possible. The insistence of Leica to adhere to the legacy of what M has always been adds to the charm of the camera. I liken the last bit to owning and enjoying a Fine fountain pen as compared to a commercial roller ball or a Vacheron Constantin wrist watch compared to a quartz Seiko watch. The Seiko and roller ball pen actually provide more accurate results far more consistently and are naturally far more affordable. But the beuty of the results and certainly the experience of ownership is a different world all together. Manually winding a fine watch is it's own pleasure compared to a set and forget quartz watch, so is manually focusing a range finder compared to auto everything Japanese alternatives.

 

As much as I appreciate the M11, and i certainly am glad I finally took the leap, I really do wish several key changes are done for the next iteration. Mainly a tilt screen ( doesn't ruin the legacy of M, done use it if you prefer contortionist photography) and I do wish Leica are investing in focus assurance tech that would somehow enable us to ensure a higher successfully shot ratio. My only problem with the M11 compared to my other cameras is that focusing takes a good amount of mental thought per shot, which is less time focusing on framing and composition. 

With that in mind, the X2D is the best camera in the world today. The lenses, especially the 55v and 90v, absolutely have the magic look, not quite as much as the best Leica lenses have but up there, and the added value of a tilt screen and autofocus make it a camera i can depend on when it matters. I used it for one day of street photography in London a few days back and used the M11 the day after. Fact of the matter is, the Hassleblad gave me the results, the Leica produced only one truly great image compared to over 30 with the X2D.

As it stands, the Hassleblad is the right tool for me produce results, the Leica is a luxury, which is great, but it can be so much more.

I really hope the M12 takes the lagacy of M and makes for a truly dependable modern camera that can take full advantage of legacy lenses. Just a tilt screen and the real challenge, groundbreaking focus peaking technology.

Sorry for the long winded post, I obviously feel strongly about this. To clarify, I do love my M and enjoy it tremendously and will continue to practice with and without the visoflex while I wait for the groundbreaking M12 

I can understand your attraction to the M system.

But, can I say that, all the good advice on the previous pages aside, the point about these cameras is not so much what they need to meet your needs, but more about you understanding them.  The M camera is a very specific thing, which is really only good at what it can do - rangefinder focusing with manual controls.  Yes, it has other options, but they are a sideshow.

You have a lovely lens (I also have the 0.95 Noctilux) and a very nice camera.  Get out and use it.  Understand what it does, and forget what it isn’t.  You have an X2D for that.  Set your ISO, set your white balance, set the shutter speed for what will work for the subject and then set the aperture for the depth of field.  Then frame, focus and expose.  I would ignore metering modes, cropping, pixel binning and everything else, apart from framing, focusing and exposing.

You will read a lot about the failings, problems, issues with the Noctilux.  Forget them - it performs just the same as the Summilux ASPH from f/1.4 and the Summicron from f/2.  Bigger and heavier etc etc - it’s the lens you have, just use it.  The important thing is to set the aperture for depth of field you need and get used to focusing.  Take it out, and use it a lot.

Edited December 8, 2024 by IkarusJohn

[elmars]

Well said!

[Markey]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I can understand your attraction to the M system.

But, can I say that, all the good advice on the previous pages aside, the point about these cameras is not so much what they need to meet your needs, but more about you understanding them.  The M camera is a very specific thing, which is really only good at what it can do - rangefinder focusing with manual controls.  Yes, it has other options, but they are a sideshow.

You have a lovely lens (I also have the 0.95 Noctilux) and a very nice camera.  Get out and use it.  Understand what it does, and forget what it isn’t.  You have an X2D for that.  Set your ISO, set your white balance, set the shutter speed for what will work for the subject and then set the aperture for the depth of field.  Then frame, focus and expose.  I would ignore metering modes, cropping, pixel binning and everything else, apart from framing, focusing and exposing.

You will read a lot about the failings, problems, issues with the Noctilux.  Forget them - it performs just the same as the Summilux ASPH from f/1.4 and the Summicron from f/2.  Bigger and heavier etc etc - it’s the lens you have, just use it.  The important thing is to set the aperture for depth of field you need and get used to focusing.  Take it out, and use it a lot.

Best advice that I`ve read on any forum.

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[Leicastheniker]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Well, let's have my wife feeding a Seagull. Tele-Elmar M 135 on M8,  wide open (4.0 180 mm equivalent) I think a Smartphone would give a somewhat different result... I rest my case.

 

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You rest your case? Well, you must be kidding'. There is nothing really sharp in this picture...