IBIS and OIS

[jaapv]

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4 hours ago, SrMi said:

Leica is the only one that switches from IBIS to OIS at specific focal lengths.

AFAIK -but there may be others- Olympus and Panasonic offer five-axis IS. Others only offer the switching type Dual IS.

[SrMi]

24 minutes ago, jaapv said:

That is exactly what I mean with a true 5-axis Dual IS as you can read from my post. But basic Dual IS switches between IBIS and OIS as I described.. The implementation depends on the firmware of both lens and camera.

Dual IS is a Panasonic term and denotes a system where OIS and IBIS work together and at the same time. Olympus calls it SyncIS. Using Panasonics term for a stabilization system that works differently than what Panasonic means it, does not make sense to me. 

[BradS]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

.... It would work better if it were Dual IS.

That hypothesis appears to be untested or if tested, the results of the experiment are confidential, Leica Proprietary information, and therefore unknown to the general public - making the assertion conjecture.

[SrMi]

25 minutes ago, BradS said:

That hypothesis appears to be untested or if tested, the results of the experiment are confidential, Leica Proprietary information, and therefore unknown to the general public - making the assertion conjecture.

Dual IS adds additional axes of stabilization to an OIS system. More axes always lead to better stabilization.

[BradS]

55 minutes ago, SrMi said:

... More axes always lead to better stabilization.

What? In the land of friction-less planes and mass-less pulleys? Where motors have infinite torque and zero mass? And sensors and optical elements are also without mass and have infinite freedom of motion? And computational power is unlimited and uses no energy? 

Surely this is another airy conjecture. It would depend upon what is meant by "better", the physics of the system, and perhaps most importantly, the constraints imposed by the system and by management.

Maybe better in terms of marketing hype. But then again there are only five axes in this case. 

Edited January 31 by BradS

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

AFAIK -but there may be others- Olympus and Panasonic offer five-axis IS. Others only offer the switching type Dual IS.

Again, no.

Leica, Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Fujifilm, Olympus, Pentax and Hasselblad offer 5 axis IBIS. That’s everyone except Phase One.

All the above also offer dual 5 axis IS, except Pentax (lenses are too old for the tech), Hasselblad (no in lens OIS is offered) and Leica. Leica is the only small format *mirrorless* company that does not have dual IS. It’s also the only one that doesn’t offer EFCS.

Phase doesn’t offer IS at all. They have a gyro available though (also called a blimp) for aerial use.

So, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Panasonic and Fujifilm all offer dual IS with an IS equiped lens.

Dual IS is where 3 axis (horizontal, vertical and roll) are handled by the body and two (yaw and pitch) are taken over by the lens *if* the lens has OIS.

There is no such thing as *switching dual IS*. What you’re describing is still single IS. One IS system at a time.

Gordon

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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45 minutes ago, BradS said:

What? In the land of friction-less planes and mass-less pulleys? Where motors have infinite torque and zero mass? And sensors and optical elements are also without mass and have infinite freedom of motion? And computational power is unlimited and uses no energy? 

Surely this is another airy conjecture. It would depend upon what is meant by "better", the physics of the system, and perhaps most importantly, the constraints imposed by the system and by management.

Maybe better in terms of marketing hype. But then again there are only five axes in this case. 

When you move you move on 5 axis. Horizontal, Vertical, yaw, pitch and roll. IS is designed to counteract these micro movements. It makes sense that a system that corrects on all 5 will be more effective than just 3. Unless you don’t move in the yaw and pitch axes.

5 years ago(ish) most systems were two (lens) or three (body) axis. The body’s IS shared two with the lens so 5 axis dual wasn’t possible. Now bodies almost all have 5 axis IBIS. The system becomes even more efficient if you can hand off some of the workload to the lens. Hence dual IS.

Better doesn’t mean perfect, for sure. But better it is. 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, BradS said:

Not sure why it matters. Isn't the fact that it works and works well good enough?

Because dual IS works better than either IBIS or OIS alone. I want to know the limitations of my gear so I can sometimes push as close as I can to that limit. If I know I have dual IS I’ll rely on a slightly lower (usually about a stop) shutter speed before I’ll pull out the tripod. I don’t just want to know that it works. I also need to know when it’ll stop working.

When the incorrect or confusing terms are used it makes it hard to get accurate consistent information about gears limitations. If I’m having trouble reading it then someone less experienced will be even more confused.

Gordon

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Again, no.

Leica, Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Fujifilm, Olympus, Pentax and Hasselblad offer 5 axis IBIS. That’s everyone except Phase One.

All the above also offer dual 5 axis IS, except Pentax (lenses are too old for the tech), Hasselblad (no in lens OIS is offered) and Leica. Leica is the only small format *mirrorless* company that does not have dual IS. It’s also the only one that doesn’t offer EFCS.

Phase doesn’t offer IS at all. They have a gyro available though (also called a blimp) for aerial use.

So, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Panasonic and Fujifilm all offer dual IS with an IS equiped lens.

Dual IS is where 3 axis (horizontal, vertical and roll) are handled by the body and two (yaw and pitch) are taken over by the lens *if* the lens has OIS.

There is no such thing as *switching dual IS*. What you’re describing is still single IS. One IS system at a time.

Gordon

 

Ok so others have caught up with Olympus As I said, there may be others.  still you and I are describing the same thing.  It may interest you that Panasonic describes their 5-axis dual I S as “ lens” in their camera menu. They may be dividing up the movement differently from your description, but in the end it comes to the same thing. I had to look up the specifications to find that was actually 5-axis-and I am not sure whether it works with Leica OIS. 
Most camera makers claim between 5 and 6.5 stops for their stabilizers. I find that claim correct as I find that I can handhold a 600 mm lens reliably at 1/125 and still get a good keeper rate at 1/60.

[jaapv]

Something not mentioned here is the lens OIS function on long Sigma lenses that provides EVF stabilization I have yet to try it out on the SL2S but it is a boon to keep your subject in the frame during shooting. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 2/1/2025 at 1:05 AM, jaapv said:

Something not mentioned here is the lens OIS function on long Sigma lenses that provides EVF stabilization I have yet to try it out on the SL2S but it is a boon to keep your subject in the frame during shooting. 

All manufacturers offer this, including Leica. The 90-280 does this on Leica bodies. On most brands you do have the option to turn this off or on ie: stabilise all the time or stabilise shooting only (as well as stabilise off). Leica doesn’t offer this option. Panasonic does.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 2/1/2025 at 12:49 AM, jaapv said:

Ok so others have caught up with Olympus As I said, there may be others.  still you and I are describing the same thing.  It may interest you that Panasonic describes their 5-axis dual I S as “ lens” in their camera menu. They may be dividing up the movement differently from your description, but in the end it comes to the same thing. I had to look up the specifications to find that was actually 5-axis-and I am not sure whether it works with Leica OIS. 
Most camera makers claim between 5 and 6.5 stops for their stabilizers. I find that claim correct as I find that I can handhold a 600 mm lens reliably at 1/125 and still get a good keeper rate at 1/60.

Panasonic describe the system here, as well as other places.

https://blogs.panasonic.com.au/consumer/lumix-5-axis-dual-s-delivers-powerful-image-stability/

Currently they are at dual IS v2. All new OIS Panasonic lenses are dual IS compatible as are the bodies. You need to check whether using other brands lenses will enable the dual IS functionality. Some Sigma lenses support dual IS with a Panasonic body but not dual IS v2. It’s going to be on a lens by lens basis. If dual IS v2 is enabled it will show on the screen of the camera. If there is no display you may have a lower version of dual IS or not depending on the lens/body mix.

This is different to m43 where both brands have dual IS but not if you mix bodies and lenses between brands….

It’s always more complicated than one thinks.

Gordon

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

All manufacturers offer this, including Leica. The 90-280 does this on Leica bodies. On most brands you do have the option to turn this off or on ie: stabilise all the time or stabilise shooting only (as well as stabilise off). Leica doesn’t offer this option. Panasonic does.

Gordon

Which is one reason why the SL cameras are not as efficient as they could be with regard to battery life. That was a big help on the S5IIX to not have the lens OIS whirring around while I'm moving the lens around between shots or while I lower the camera to my side for a few seconds then back up. With the SL cameras, the lens is actively trying to fight my motion and stabilize the image while I'm not even looking through the camera (FFS!).

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Which is one reason why the SL cameras are not as efficient as they could be with regard to battery life. That was a big help on the S5IIX to not have the lens OIS whirring around while I'm moving the lens around between shots or while I lower the camera to my side for a few seconds then back up. With the SL cameras, the lens is actively trying to fight my motion and stabilize the image while I'm not even looking through the camera (FFS!).

Can it be the PRE AF active?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Which is one reason why the SL cameras are not as efficient as they could be with regard to battery life. That was a big help on the S5IIX to not have the lens OIS whirring around while I'm moving the lens around between shots or while I lower the camera to my side for a few seconds then back up. With the SL cameras, the lens is actively trying to fight my motion and stabilize the image while I'm not even looking through the camera (FFS!).

It’s only stabilising when initialising AF. ie: half press on the shutter button or joystick (for Leica SL cameras).

And in cameras with IBIS the system is always active, even if IBIS is off. Power is still used to hold the sensor in place as long as the camera is turned on. I don’t know how much more power would be consumed by the gyro motors being active. I guess a bit though. Just not sure if it’s a little or a big bit. But in an IBIS camera a bit of power is always required to hold the sensor in an electromagnetic field.

I have the system turned on full time on all my systems. I don’t like shaky screens. I’m not convinced it makes any difference to Leica’s battery life vs the competitors. Lots of things use more power than the IS system. The processor, sensor and EVF are the worst offenders. Disabling the rear screen and having the EVF active only when at the eye would save a lot of power.

A cheap power bank removes any issues with battery life anyway.

Gordon

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Can it be the PRE AF active?

I don’t use that.

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

It’s only stabilising when initialising AF. ie: half press on the shutter button or joystick (for Leica SL cameras).

And in cameras with IBIS the system is always active, even if IBIS is off. Power is still used to hold the sensor in place as long as the camera is turned on. I don’t know how much more power would be consumed by the gyro motors being active. I guess a bit though. Just not sure if it’s a little or a big bit. But in an IBIS camera a bit of power is always required to hold the sensor in an electromagnetic field.

I have the system turned on full time on all my systems. I don’t like shaky screens. I’m not convinced it makes any difference to Leica’s battery life vs the competitors. Lots of things use more power than the IS system. The processor, sensor and EVF are the worst offenders. Disabling the rear screen and having the EVF active only when at the eye would save a lot of power.

A cheap power bank removes any issues with battery life anyway.

Gordon

I was talking about lens OIS being the big power draw, not IBIS (specifically for me when using the monster 60-600). 

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

All manufacturers offer this, including Leica. The 90-280 does this on Leica bodies. On most brands you do have the option to turn this off or on ie: stabilise all the time or stabilise shooting only (as well as stabilise off). Leica doesn’t offer this option. Panasonic does.

Gordon

With Sigma EVF stabilization is a programmable function of the lens. Selectable by the function switch. 

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

With Sigma EVF stabilization is a programmable function of the lens. Selectable by the function switch. 

That's what I do when using the Sigmas with OIS on the SL bodies – turn off OIS using the switch on the lens when I need to review images on the LCD for a minute or two. This greatly reduces the power draw from the camera, especially if I'm walking or moving around a bit.

Fujifilm's GFX automatically disengages OIS and powers down the lens when one enters playback mode on the camera. It can be jarring because the lens makes a big clunking sound as the elements return to an idle state.

Edited February 2 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

Yes but you only need to switch off the OIS switch not the function switch. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[FlashGordonPhotography]

6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

That's what I do when using the Sigmas with OIS on the SL bodies – turn off OIS using the switch on the lens when I need to review images on the LCD for a minute or two. This greatly reduces the power draw from the camera, especially if I'm walking or moving around a bit.

Fujifilm's GFX automatically disengages OIS and powers down the lens when one enters playback mode on the camera. It can be jarring because the lens makes a big clunking sound as the elements return to an idle state.

On an SL body, all this does is switch the IS system from the lens to the body, so IS would still be active, just in another way. You’d also need to turn the IS off in the body (while the lens IS is off or the option is greyed out). The system would still use some power to keep the sensor floating.

I am not sure how much more power the lens IS uses compared to IBIS.

Gordon