IBIS and OIS

[SrMi]

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12 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Five axis is indeed not certain but it would be quite illogical to take it out of the system they acquired from Panasonic. 

And yet, Leica explicitly mentions they always use either OIS or IBIS and never mentions using them together.

As I wrote, manufacturers who have Dual or Sync IS support it only with few lenses. Olympus does it only with 300mm and 12-100mm (maybe some newer too).

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I wrote this, and the post I referenced said: OIS for longer focal lengths and IBIS for shorter. I claim Leica IBIS does not use rotational corrections when OIS is active like Panasonic does. You claim Leica uses rotational IBIS correction with OIS but have not shared any facts to confirm that belief. Is that correct?

The point that you are missing is that dual OIS is not simultaneous but consecutive. 

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The point that you are missing is that dual OIS is not simultaneous but consecutive. 

That is not the definition of Dual IS per Panasonic or Olympus Sync IS.

P.S.: Dual IS is enabled for fixed focal lengths as well.

Edited November 25, 2024 by SrMi

[londond]

Many thanks for the prompt replies and subsequent clarifications. Just to clarify is there:

- consensus that IBIS works at lower focal length and OIS at longer, and that Leica use it consecutively

- disagreement as to whether there is any Leica overlap, which would constitute an element the sort of dual IS used by Panasonic or Olympus (if only for the overlap)

- uncertainty about the FL that triggers the transition, which is relevant to my 24-90 dilemma (is it long enough to really benefit from its own OIS?) 

If I understand correctly, a longer lens benefits from its OIS  whether or not it’s simultaneously  dual, as OIS is the better option at longer FLs , for example on a 90-280. But this may not apply so much or at all on the 24-90?

[jaapv]

42 minutes ago, SrMi said:

That is not the definition of Dual IS per Panasonic or Olympus Sync IS.

P.S.: Dual IS is enabled for fixed focal lengths as well

It is per Panasonic full-frame...

And yes, fixed or zoom makes no difference.

Edited November 25, 2024 by jaapv

[jaapv]

24 minutes ago, londond said:

Many thanks for the prompt replies and subsequent clarifications. Just to clarify is there:

- consensus that IBIS works at lower focal length and OIS at longer, and that Leica use it consecutively

- disagreement as to whether there is any Leica overlap, which would constitute an element the sort of dual IS used by Panasonic or Olympus (if only for the overlap)

- uncertainty about the FL that triggers the transition, which is relevant to my 24-90 dilemma (is it long enough to really benefit from its own OIS?) 

If I understand correctly, a longer lens benefits from its OIS  whether or not it’s simultaneously  dual, as OIS is the better option at longer FLs , for example on a 90-280. But this may not apply so much or at all on the 24-90?

90 is about the cut-off.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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31 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It is per Panasonic full-frame...

And yes, fixed or zoom makes no difference.

Jaapv. Sorry You're wrong. Panasonics dual IS works like this.

In a Panasonic body with IBIS stabilisation is available on 5 axes. If OIS is available in the lens the lens will provide OIS on 3 axes. There is no 5 axis IS in OIS systems by Panasonic. When you use dual IS. The addition of the other 2 axis is provided by the body in a dual IS system making for a 5 axes set up.

All the major manufacturers that support dual IS use the same system. When they do they will quote two different IS system figures.

From this page:

https://blogs.panasonic.com.au/consumer/lumix-5-axis-dual-s-delivers-powerful-image-stability/

What’s more, when using any one of the compatible LUMIX G lenses, you can also enjoy Dual I.S., which now combines 5-axis in-body stabilisation with the 2-axis optical stabilisation in the lens. This provides class-leading stabilisation in both photo and video from wide angle to telephoto, and offers you stunning effectiveness even when shooting handheld with lenses, even when shooting handheld in low-light environments.

It's an old page. I can't be bothered to do anyone else's research for them, really. So all of you should use the googie button on your phones.

Leica SL cameras DO NOT currently support dual IS.

In the same way that the SL cameras don't have the fully integrated AF systems of the S cameras yet.

On the SL2/3 IS duties with switch from the body to the lens if OIS is enabled on the lens. This is where Nick is incorrect. (I know Nick). Because he doesn't actually use Panasonic lenses. If you put a Panasonic lens on a Leica body the same thing occurs. IS duties will be taken over by the lens. If you use the switch on the lens to disable IS you will then have the option to use IBIS instead. But they never work together. Regardless of focal length. He lost me at the change over part. On the 24-90 the lens provides the IS, always, for example.

Essentially, if a lens has OIS then the SL cameras will default to that. If the lens has no OIS then IBIS will be used. There is NO dual IS on SL cameras.

Gordon

Edit:   I have to send Nick some files so I'm going to clarify this. This is the first lens Leica has that spans the this *change over region* I'll check if it's actually different to the other lenses.

Edited November 25, 2024 by FlashGordonPhotography
I'll check with the source.

[SrMi]

28 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It is per Panasonic full-frame...

And yes, fixed or zoom makes no difference.

How do you do "not simultaneous but consecutive" "dual OIS" with a fixed focal length? And what is a dual OIS ;-)? 

[jaapv]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

And what is a dual OIS

A typo.

[dkCambridgeshire]

I'm considering acquiring a Leica SL2 S and will be using "third party" manual focus tele lenses up to 800mm. Appears possible to 'dial in' shorter focal lengths (up to 90mm?) to activate IBIS ... but is there any facility or means, to enable image stabilisation with the longer telephoto focal lengths? I have not been able to access any illustrations of the IBIS menu which presumably has a matrix with all selectable focal lengths.  

BW, dunk 

[LD_50]

7 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

I'm considering acquiring a Leica SL2 S and will be using "third party" manual focus tele lenses up to 800mm. Appears possible to 'dial in' shorter focal lengths (up to 90mm?) to activate IBIS ... but is there any facility or means, to enable image stabilisation with the longer telephoto focal lengths? I have not been able to access any illustrations of the IBIS menu which presumably has a matrix with all selectable focal lengths.  

BW, dunk 

IBIS should work with any manual lens of any focal length. 

The up to 90 discussion refers to scenarios where you have IBIS and mount an OIS equipped lens. 

[LD_50]

2 hours ago, LD_50 said:

IBIS should work with any manual lens of any focal length. 

The up to 90 discussion refers to scenarios where you have IBIS and mount an OIS equipped lens. 

I should clarify here, the system won’t know the focal length of the lens so you will have to select a Leica lens from the menu for IBIS to be available. This probably rules out your 800mm. 

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

I'm considering acquiring a Leica SL2 S and will be using "third party" manual focus tele lenses up to 800mm. Appears possible to 'dial in' shorter focal lengths (up to 90mm?) to activate IBIS ... but is there any facility or means, to enable image stabilisation with the longer telephoto focal lengths? I have not been able to access any illustrations of the IBIS menu which presumably has a matrix with all selectable focal lengths.  

BW, dunk 

An IBIS may not help much for 800mm lenses. For lenses above 400mm and without OIS, I would use a tripod with a ballhead or gimbal.

[Bikie John]

I just checked on the SL2-S. The entries in the menu for "Other lens" (or whatever it is called - can't check as the battery died on me while I was checking!) go up to 400mm. There is an "Other" option to put the focal length in manually, I tried but it wouldn't accept 800mm. Battery died before I could try anything else so I don't know how far it will go, sorry.

Hope this is helpful ... John

[jaapv]

 But : In systems with dual IS the camera will use IBIS up to 90 mm and switch to OIS beyond that, sometimes with a small overlap, for instance with 70-200 OIS lenses. The only use for IBIS after the switch will be in true 5-axis systems where IBIS will remain active for rotation. But lens and camera must support this. The point is that the motion gets too large for IBIS to follow effectively with long focal lengths. 
I’m sorry Dunk, but it simply won’t work for your OIS-less longer lenses, whatever you try. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

 But : In systems with dual IS the camera will use IBIS up to 90 mm and switch to OIS beyond that, sometimes with a small overlap, for instance with 70-200 OIS lenses. The only use for IBIS after the switch will be in true 5-axis systems where IBIS will remain active for rotation. But lens and camera must support this. The point is that the motion gets too large for IBIS to follow effectively with long focal lengths. 
I’m sorry Dunk, but it simply won’t work for your OIS-less longer lenses, whatever you try. 

This is not dual IS. It’s single IS. ONE system provides the IS effect at a time. There’s a switch point around 90mm where it’ll move from IBIS to OIS. This is what all SL cameras use.

Dual IS is where both systems work together, at the same time. 3 axis from the lens and 2 axis from the body. Some Panasonic cameras have this but no Leica’s. They don’t hand off part of the IS system. They hand off the entire IS system. That’s still singe IS.

I get that everyone jumped on Nick Rains’ explanation but this is not what he meant (well, I don’t think it is). He’s usually incredibly articulate but in this video I don’t think he explained it clearly. When he said that there’s a band where IS switches from the camera to the lens it does NOT mean that Leica’s use a dual IS system. They don’t. Never have. They simply hand over IS duties from the body to the lens in a seamless way. It would be bizarre to actually implement the tech for dual IS and only make it available in a 30mm band from 70-100mm. It makes absolutely no sense.

And to be honest I’m not entirely sure his explanation was correct at all. As far as I can tell, even with shorter lenses (24-90) IS is handled by the lens *if* the lens has OIS. I’m not seeing evidence the 24-90’s IS system isn’t in use on the SL2/3 cameras. It also makes zero sense for the 70-200 2.8 to use IBIS for the first 20mm and OIS after that. Surely it just uses the OIS when provided, regardless of focal length. The only place this actually makes sense is something like a 28-200. But I really couldn’t be bothered to test it properly.

Single IS: Camera OR lens.

Dual IS Camera AND lens.

A lens with no IS can have IBIS to 400mm. A lens with OIS will not engage the IBIS on a SL2/3 camera.

Your use of the term is really confusing. And incorrect.

Gordon

Edited January 30 by FlashGordonPhotography

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

This is not dual IS. It’s single IS. ONE system provides the IS effect at a time. There’s a switch point around 90mm where it’ll move from IBIS to OIS. This is what all SL cameras use.

Dual IS is where both systems work together, at the same time. 3 axis from the lens and 2 axis from the body. Some Panasonic cameras have this but no Leica’s. They don’t hand off part of the IS system. They hand off the entire IS system. That’s still singe IS.

I get that everyone jumped on Nick Rains’ explanation but this is not what he meant (well, I don’t think it is). He’s usually incredibly articulate but in this video I don’t think he explained it clearly. When he said that there’s a band where IS switches from the camera to the lens it does NOT mean that Leica’s use a dual IS system. They don’t. Never have. They simply hand over IS duties from the body to the lens in a seamless way. It would be bizarre to actually implement the tech for dual IS and only make it available in a 30mm band from 70-100mm. It makes absolutely no sense.

And to be honest I’m not entirely sure his explanation was correct at all. As far as I can tell, even with shorter lenses (24-90) IS is handled by the lens *if* the lens has OIS. I’m not seeing evidence the 24-90’s IS system isn’t in use on the SL2/3 cameras. It also makes zero sense for the 70-200 2.8 to use IBIS for the first 20mm and OIS after that. Surely it just uses the OIS when provided, regardless of focal length. The only place this actually makes sense is something like a 28-200. But I really couldn’t be bothered to test it properly.

Single IS: Camera OR lens.

Dual IS Camera AND lens.

Your use of the term is really confusing. And incorrect.

Gordon

+1

We can also differentiate the Single IS implementations, where the camera uses exclusively IBIS or OIS, and the cameras that can switch between using only OIS or IBIS at given focal lengths. AFAIK, Leica is the only one that switches from IBIS to OIS at specific focal lengths.

[BradS]

Not sure why it matters. Isn't the fact that it works and works well good enough?

Edited January 30 by BradS

[SrMi]

27 minutes ago, BradS said:

Not sure why it matters. Isn't the fact that it works and works well good enough?

Correct terminology matters. It would work better if it were Dual IS.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

 

Dual IS is where both systems work together, at the same time. 3 axis from the lens and 2 axis from the body

That is exactly what I mean with a true 5-axis Dual IS as you can read from my post. But basic Dual IS switches between IBIS and OIS as I described.. The implementation depends on the firmware of both lens and camera.