Leica S006 sensor corrosion question

[chrismuc]

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I like the colors of my M9 a lot, so I am considering to buy a S 006. In China, many are offered for about (only) USD 1000 to 1500. I tested one camera which looked very nice.

Everything worked well, the sensor looks totally clean, I neither could see any dust nor any corrosion. When taking pictures, at apertures 2.5 to 5.6, the images are perfect, without any dust or corrosion dots. 

But when taking an image of the sky at f22, the image shows small dots all over the sensor area. They look like 'soft edge' dots, no halos, no large areas of disruption.

First image the whole sensor, you won't see much at 2048 resolution.

Second image a crop of a 2048 wide area.

What is your experience? Is that sensor corrosion? Will the dots become larger?

The climate in South China is very humid. If that is sensor glass corrosion, I am a kind of positively surprised, that it is not worse after about 12 years or operation in such conditions.

 

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[Tirpitz666]

I'm after a "cheap" S 006 as well, not very easy to find in here the western countries indeed, notwithstanding the well-know sensor issue.

Those dots don't look like the corrosion spots I've come to "study" over the web, but it's not easy to tell precisely and that is anyway a pretty dirty sensor of course; I don't know if I would take the plunge on it knowing that it also comes from a humid climate. Not an easy call for sure, even for 1000-1500 USD.

[HuntingSand]

Greetings to S China. I was just there (very south, Hainan). Those spots at F22 don't look good. I'd ask the seller (shop?) to do a sensor cleaning, then inspect again, from f6.8 onward. Corrosion on my 6 looked like this at f11 (I had the sensor unit replaced in 2020):

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[chrismuc]

many thx Hahn

yes I should make an f-stop row to better determine the effect

the seller told me, that Leica Guangzhou could not do a professional sensor cleaning, only Leica Shanghai

they have Leica Boutiques here everywhere, but I don't know their local competence ... apart from selling :-) 

[chrismuc]

btw

(unfortunately) neither the camera nor the lens has a button to switch from AF to MF

so, avoiding to dig into the menu for that purpose, I suppose the best option is to select MF and use the back focus button for AF

or other idea? 

[HuntingSand]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb chrismuc:

many thx Hahn

yes I should make an f-stop row to better determine the effect

the seller told me, that Leica Guangzhou could not do a professional sensor cleaning, only Leica Shanghai

they have Leica Boutiques here everywhere, but I don't know their local competence ... apart from selling :-) 

You could ask Leica about the serial number of this 6 and see if here's any service history attached to it. They are usually very responsive.

[xiaubauu2009]

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15 hours ago, chrismuc said:

btw

(unfortunately) neither the camera nor the lens has a button to switch from AF to MF

so, avoiding to dig into the menu for that purpose, I suppose the best option is to select MF and use the back focus button for AF

or other idea? 

That's how I normally used it for the MF to AF approach.

 

As for the sensor cleaning, just clean it yourself, the sensor cover is not that fragile as long as you use the proper kit. Digital back exposed sensor is pretty ok getting cleaned by yourself and doesn't need to be 'professionally' cleaned by someone else all the time. 

The dots look like dust to me, but one will only know once you have it cleaned a bit. Considering the price of the camera, just have someone clean it in any shops in China, they do pretty good work. They also do sensor cover replacement. But, their work are inconsistent to say the least.

[250swb]

18 hours ago, HuntingSand said:

Greetings to S China. I was just there (very south, Hainan). Those spots at F22 don't look good. I'd ask the seller (shop?) to do a sensor cleaning, then inspect again, from f6.8 onward. Corrosion on my 6 looked like this at f11 (I had the sensor unit replaced in 2020):

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None of those look like corrosion to me, it's dust and fibres, and it's dust the OP has on the sensor as well. Corrosion is seen at whatever lens aperture is being used, but dust shows up at smaller apertures because the light rays entering the lens are at a more acute angle and which are then blocked by the dust, so what you see is the shadow cast by the dust on the sensor. 

Edited November 13, 2024 by 250swb

[chrismuc]

thx guys, that is also what I was thinking. the spots are so tiny, they do not develop becoming larger, no halos, does not really look like corrosion specks

I have a second similar camera offer which looks better (less spots, similar kind of spots) 

I think I will take the risk and get one and then look for a good workshop for cleaning (or give it a try myself)

plus some S lenses of course (definitely 70 and 120, maybe also 35)

luckily they are also quite affordable, and typically in good condition

and the metal gear is easier to exchange over here (in China), with less risk than sensor glass replacement

[helged]

20 minutes ago, chrismuc said:

thx guys, that is also what I was thinking. the spots are so tiny, they do not develop becoming larger, no halos, does not really look like corrosion specks

I have a second similar camera offer which looks better (less spots, similar kind of spots) 

I think I will take the risk and get one and then look for a good workshop for cleaning (or give it a try myself)

plus some S lenses of course (definitely 70 and 120, maybe also 35)

luckily they are also quite affordable, and typically in good condition

and the metal gear is easier to exchange over here (in China), with less risk than sensor glass replacement

Sensor cleaning needs to be done now and then, more often in dusty environments and/or if lenses are frequently changed. In case you are not familiar with cleaning, you may have a look on YouTube etc, or ask a person in a (real) photo store to give you a guide. Procedure: Start with a full charged battery, turn on the Sensor Cleaning option in the menu; start with a blower with the body facing down; visually inspect the sensor with a sensor lupe; wet clean if needed with a sensor swab with a few drops of sensor cleaning fluid (I typically use three drops; to drops off centre on one side of the swab, the third drop in the middle of the other side of the swab; wait a little for the fluid to evenly cover the swab), wait a little for the sensor to dry, inspect the sensor with the loupe. 

[chrismuc]

thank you very much Helge, I will report 🙂

[HuntingSand]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

None of those look like corrosion to me, it's dust and fibres, and it's dust the OP has on the sensor as well. Corrosion is seen at whatever lens aperture is being used, but dust shows up at smaller apertures because the light rays entering the lens are at a more acute angle and which are then blocked by the dust, so what you see is the shadow cast by the dust on the sensor. 

You may not have the full picture of the condition of my 6 (pun intended). It was corrosion, as determined first by my trusted dealer, then by Leica, who proceeded to replace the sensor unit. In German those "fibre" imprints on the image are called Schlieren (from the dissolving glue between the sensor and the cover glass), beyond f8 they get very messy very quickly. Had the same on my M9 before, btw, which I decided not to get repaired.

[HuntingSand]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb chrismuc:

thx guys, that is also what I was thinking. the spots are so tiny, they do not develop becoming larger, no halos, does not really look like corrosion specks

I have a second similar camera offer which looks better (less spots, similar kind of spots) 

I think I will take the risk and get one and then look for a good workshop for cleaning (or give it a try myself)

plus some S lenses of course (definitely 70 and 120, maybe also 35)

luckily they are also quite affordable, and typically in good condition

and the metal gear is easier to exchange over here (in China), with less risk than sensor glass replacement

Good luck. It's a pretty amazing camera. What's with that last sentence of yours? The AF gears being easier to exchange in the country itself? That's very fortunate. 
Am flying down to Hong Kong end of the month, btw, haven't decided which camera to bring. There's a very active Leica community in HK, some of them are old friends of mine. You may have the same scenario in Guangzhou or Shenzhen, if you're on that side of the border.

[chrismuc]

Yeah, one cool thing in China is definitely that you have many options to repair technical equipment. They don't easily throw away valuable goods which have an issue. Of course one has to find a reliable workshop.

I am in Guangzhou mostly, sometimes drive to Shenzhen. Txt me if you are around, would be cool to meet and chat on digital photography.

[chrismuc]

some considerations / questions regarding the sensor glass

1

I saw that the sensor glasses for M9 and S have a quite strong (cyan-) bluish color tint.

Does anyone know why? UV- or IR-protection for the sensor?

If the glass is bluish it would mean that the transmitted light has slightly bluish tint.

But if the bluish color of the glass is coming from a bluish looking vacuum coating, that color is reflected and the transmitted light has slightly yellowish tint. 

2

Was the original sensor glass (AR?) coated? If so, was the corrosion a corroded coating or is it corrosion of the glass below the coating?

One workshop here also offered to polish the original glass to remove the corrosion. According to the guy, that could help to keep the sensor well for a few years, depending on the environmental conditions. But that only might make sense, if the sensor glass was not coated. If the polishing removes the coating, I have doubts that that would be helpful (also the color transmission might be effected).

3

They offer here up to three sensor glass options: German Schott glass, Japanese optical glass and Chinese optical glass. But hardly any workshop can provide a data sheet of the glass they use, so it's really hard to decide, which workshop to trust to do a repair. (some mention that they also replace the low pass (AA) filter ... which is bs because the sensors in S cameras don't have low pass filters)

 

the last image shows a badly corroded (M9) sensor

non of the sensors I saw in the S cameras looked so bad, ... luckily

 

(I took the risk and bought a S006 from Beijing Leica boutique store. I hope a reliable source. I shall receive it this weekend, will test it and will share the experience.)

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[250swb]

14 hours ago, HuntingSand said:

You may not have the full picture of the condition of my 6 (pun intended). It was corrosion, as determined first by my trusted dealer, then by Leica, who proceeded to replace the sensor unit. In German those "fibre" imprints on the image are called Schlieren (from the dissolving glue between the sensor and the cover glass), beyond f8 they get very messy very quickly. Had the same on my M9 before, btw, which I decided not to get repaired.

I'm more sceptical, given your example (or the OP's examples) has none of the typical traits of sensor corrosion such as dark spots surrounded by a lighter ring. Your camera shop will have agreed with you and sent the camera back to Leica because 'the customer is always right', and if it fell within the serial number range that had the potential for sensor corrosion Leica will have replaced the sensor as a matter of procedure whether or not it had corrosion. Examples of confirmation bias exist everywhere and if people want to believe it's sensor corrosion they will create that scenario. I remember reading a thread started by somebody who'd gone straight to the corrosion diagnosis and it turned out to be a swarm of bees he'd photographed!

Edited November 14, 2024 by 250swb

[HuntingSand]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

I'm more sceptical, given your example (or the OP's examples) has none of the typical traits of sensor corrosion such as dark spots surrounded by a lighter ring. Your camera shop will have agreed with you and sent the camera back to Leica because 'the customer is always right', and if it fell within the serial number range that had the potential for sensor corrosion Leica will have replaced the sensor as a matter of procedure whether or not it had corrosion. Examples of confirmation bias exist everywhere and if people want to believe it's sensor corrosion they will create that scenario. I remember reading a thread started by somebody who'd gone straight to the corrosion diagnosis and it turned out to be a swarm of bees he'd photographed!

Very true. Btw, the swarm of bees picture was me. I was pulling everyone’s leg. 

[Stuart Richardson]

1000-1500 USD for an S006 is a pretty crazy deal, particularly if the glass is ok. The only one I see on ebay right now is 3000.

[HuntingSand]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb chrismuc:

some considerations / questions regarding the sensor glass

1

I saw that the sensor glasses for M9 and S have a quite strong (cyan-) bluish color tint.

Does anyone know why? UV- or IR-protection for the sensor?

If the glass is bluish it would mean that the transmitted light has slightly bluish tint.

But if the bluish color of the glass is coming from a bluish looking vacuum coating, that color is reflected and the transmitted light has slightly yellowish tint. 

2

Was the original sensor glass (AR?) coated? If so, was the corrosion a corroded coating or is it corrosion of the glass below the coating?

One workshop here also offered to polish the original glass to remove the corrosion. According to the guy, that could help to keep the sensor well for a few years, depending on the environmental conditions. But that only might make sense, if the sensor glass was not coated. If the polishing removes the coating, I have doubts that that would be helpful (also the color transmission might be effected).

3

They offer here up to three sensor glass options: German Schott glass, Japanese optical glass and Chinese optical glass. But hardly any workshop can provide a data sheet of the glass they use, so it's really hard to decide, which workshop to trust to do a repair. (some mention that they also replace the low pass (AA) filter ... which is bs because the sensors in S cameras don't have low pass filters)

 

the last image shows a badly corroded (M9) sensor

non of the sensors I saw in the S cameras looked so bad, ... luckily

 

(I took the risk and bought a S006 from Beijing Leica boutique store. I hope a reliable source. I shall receive it this weekend, will test it and will share the experience.)

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Good grief! That looks like open heart surgery!
When in doubt about the types of glass, my default would be Schott. It's more the adhesive between the cover glass and the sensor chip which is the culprit, though, so ask them not to use Gorilla Glue or stuff like that (just kidding, your repair guys surely know better anyway).

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[HuntingSand]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb chrismuc:

Yeah, one cool thing in China is definitely that you have many options to repair technical equipment. They don't easily throw away valuable goods which have an issue. Of course one has to find a reliable workshop.

I am in Guangzhou mostly, sometimes drive to Shenzhen. Txt me if you are around, would be cool to meet and chat on digital photography.

I might do that. Only have four days in HK, though, then on to Taiwan.
My first Leica was bought in China, btw. A IIIC from 1947/48, which I found in the back of a department store on Nanjing Lu in Shanghai. That was back in 1984. Shutter speeds were (mostly) fine, the viewfinder was in alignment, no hole or tear in the cloth shutter curtain, no corrosion (sic!) on the die-cast, all-metal body; somebody had taken good care of it. I loaded it up with Ilford and then Agfa b/w film and shot quite a few rolls throughout China and Japan over the years. Small camera, great fun.