M system tips for new user

[Velo-city]

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1 minute ago, pedaes said:

I think you do not understand what a Leica M is about. They don't try and be what they are not. And they are not for everyone.

If you want the latest tech etc it is available in other cameras - why bother with a M and then complain it hasn't got what it doesn't pretend to have.

Respectfully I never said I knew what an M was about, quite openly discussing how I’m trying to find out.
 

This isn’t about latest tech for the sake of it. 
What I’m talking about is a Leica design decision to apparently use older technology in their latest model, that causes the camera to become not only inferior speed-wise but unstable/unreliable. That’s obviously a poor choice by any manufacturer. It’s got nothing to do with rangefinders or the ‘ethos’ of the M system.  
And in fact I never read about this issue is all my research - it must have got buried under all the other issues.😂

I get the strong brand loyalty here but no need to be so defensive.

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[pedaes]

34 minutes ago, Velo-city said:

no need to be so defensive.

Not being defensive, just trying to help you understand the context of the M series and to manage expectations. 

I know you haven't got a M, but key question would be what does it not do as a rangefinder camera for still pictures that would inhibit your image making.

[Derbyshire Man]

I think you can love the camera and the usage experience but decry old tech that causes basic incompatibility. The SD card is the film and we’d all be up in arms if most film stock was ok but tri-x crashed the camera!

Having said that I think the whole card paranoia is way overdone, the biggest issue causing freezes is essentially drive issues I think, ie the card is removed, the card changes when out of the camera, goes back in and camera gets the hump. So although I don’t typically use the SD card when I do it gets formatted in computer so as not to re-appear in the camera with the various unix hidden files that the Mac writes to the card. It’s not like it’s impossible to skip this but you are more likely to have issues. 
 

I do agree with you @pedaes in that for stills only and no video bonkers fast cards are not needed, I’d follow the manual advice from Leica though rather than internet forum voodoo!

Edited November 4, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

[lct]

I would try before complaining. The v90 cards i use (Delkin, ProGrade, Sandisk) are working fine since firmware 2.1.3.

[Mahesh]

24 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

I think you can love the camera and the usage experience but decry old tech that causes basic incompatibility. The SD card is the film and we’d all be up in arms if most film stock was ok but tri-x crashed the camera!

Having said that I think the whole card paranoia is way overdone, the biggest issue causing freezes is essentially drive issues I think, ie the card is removed, the card changes when out of the camera, goes back in and camera gets the hump. So although I don’t typically use the SD card when I do it gets formatted in computer so as not to re-appear in the camera with the various unix hidden files that the Mac writes to the card. It’s not like it’s impossible to skip this but you are more likely to have issues. 
 

I do agree with you @pedaes in that for stills only and no video bonkers fast cards are not needed, I’d follow the manual advice from Leica though rather than internet forum voodoo!

Looks like Leica does not think you need to format in the camera as they have omitted in M11-D as you know. I am not particularly bothered about it, as long as that does not cause any issue.

@Velo-city 

Leica has never been the pinnacle of technology and these cameras have their quirks. The cost is what it is. If you are buying, you will have to do so with some risk that you might get some issue, you might have to send it to Leica for repairs and you may not have it back with you for a few months. 

Fortunately, it is not a car that stops in the middle of the road. 

 

[Derbyshire Man]

22 minutes ago, Mahesh said:

Looks like Leica does not think you need to format in the camera as they have omitted in M11-D as you know. I am not particularly bothered about it, as long as that does not cause any issue.

@Velo-city 

Leica has never been the pinnacle of technology and these cameras have their quirks. The cost is what it is. If you are buying, you will have to do so with some risk that you might get some issue, you might have to send it to Leica for repairs and you may not have it back with you for a few months. 

Fortunately, it is not a car that stops in the middle of the road. 

 

This is because of the updated software with probably better drive  error trapping (I’m seriously guessing here!)

I think though the community on average is too tolerant of Leica’s faults, it can be a great product, with nice people, willing to launch niche cameras called for by users but flaky hardware/firmware, under resourced service departments, lack of service department booking system etc, is not something users should be cutting slack for, especially in such a profitable outfit!

[maxpower]

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4 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said:

This is because of the updated software with probably better drive  error trapping (I’m seriously guessing here!)

I think though the community on average is too tolerant of Leica’s faults, it can be a great product, with nice people, willing to launch niche cameras called for by users but flaky hardware/firmware, under resourced service departments, lack of service department booking system etc, is not something users should be cutting slack for, especially in such a profitable outfit!

Too tolerant? We've seen years of loud complaining on this forum and elsewhere.. 

[Lee S]

15 minutes ago, maxpower said:

Too tolerant? We've seen years of loud complaining on this forum and elsewhere.. 

True, they will only fix the issues when the cost to their bottom line exceeds the cost to fix. 

Freezing issues really put me off an upgrade. 

 

 

[Derbyshire Man]

24 minutes ago, maxpower said:

Too tolerant? We've seen years of loud complaining on this forum and elsewhere.. 

Good point, some users/apologists!

[costa43]

I think an important one is learning to read distance relatively accurately. I tend to keep my lens at infinity and as I lift it to my eye I adjust focus to a point I know is close to my subject, at that point only the slightest of adjustments is usually required. After a while it becomes muscle memory and speeds up focusing a fair bit. It also helps when shooting from the hip or zone focusing. 

[hdmesa]

14 hours ago, Velo-city said:

Respectfully I never said I knew what an M was about, quite openly discussing how I’m trying to find out.
 

This isn’t about latest tech for the sake of it. 
What I’m talking about is a Leica design decision to apparently use older technology in their latest model, that causes the camera to become not only inferior speed-wise but unstable/unreliable. That’s obviously a poor choice by any manufacturer. It’s got nothing to do with rangefinders or the ‘ethos’ of the M system.  
And in fact I never read about this issue is all my research - it must have got buried under all the other issues.😂

I get the strong brand loyalty here but no need to be so defensive.

Don't have something more productive to be doing? Meanwhile the rest of us continue to use the M11 with no problems with the SD cards write speeds. 

[andybarton]

21 hours ago, pedaes said:

They have always been about the essentials only, and will hopefully continue that way.

They even advertise them this way. 

[Velo-city]

48 minutes ago, andybarton said:

They even advertise them this way. 

Do they? Not entirely I wouldn’t say.

From Leicas own website about the M11:

”Continuing this tradition, the latest addition to the family balances iconic design with exceptional state-of-the-art technology, making it one of the most compact full-frame camera systems in the world.”

My original point was the surprise reading about apparently  outdated tech causing compatibility / instability.  Along with a slightly outdated usb. I didn’t make a huge deal but anything not pro-Leica seems to get a strong reaction here. In any case if I were to go in Leicas website I think it would actually be fair to expect the latest tech (as of 2022) in the M11. 

Edited November 5, 2024 by Velo-city

[andybarton]

It's literally in their strap line:

Leica: Das Wesentliche

It's at the bottom of the 70 Years of M cameras webpage

https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/photography/70-years-leica-m

[andybarton]

It's all over the place

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[andybarton]

6 hours ago, Velo-city said:

My original point was the surprise reading about apparently  outdated tech causing compatibility / instability.  Along with a slightly outdated usb. I didn’t make a huge deal but anything not pro-Leica seems to get a strong reaction here. In any case if I were to go in Leicas website I think it would actually be fair to expect the latest tech (as of 2022) in the M11. 

If you are expecting Leica to be at the bleeding edge of technology, competing head to head with the likes of Canon, Nikon and Sony, then you are going to be very disappointed. That is never going to happen. Yes, Leica need to invest more in their firmware writing skills and, somehow, increase the skilled labour in their repairs department.

If you want a camera that is basically hand-made, Leica is the only game in town, unless you go to very, very highly specialised artisan companies.

If you want a digital rangefinder which is compatible with 99% of Leica lenses going back 90 years, Leica are the only game in town..

If you consider the challenge of making a digital rangefinder, with basically 90 year old focussing technology, then Ms are a remarkable achievement.

Basically, you either want a rangefinder camera, or you don't. Once you have made your mind up and the answer is "Yes I do", then you just need to choose which Leica you want.

TBH, I couldn't give a monkey's what technology is in the latest Sony or Nikon. Their cameras are of no interest to me.

 

[Derbyshire Man]

Crikey, what a feisty bunch you are!

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, Velo-city said:

latest tech (as of 2022) in the M11

Does the M11 need 'latest tech'. No video, no stabilization, no sensor cleaning, no autofocus etc. Great!

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[lct]

Interesting discussion. What some people dislike in the M11 is exactly what i like: a mix of ancient and modern technology. A sort of Janus camera. Both RF and mirrorless. The best OVF + a decent EVF. The common point being those superb M lenses. Leica lenses of course but also ZM, VM and now affordable lenses coming from China. The M12 will be even more modern i guess but not too much hopefully. You're on the right track, Leica, keep up the good work! 👍

[Velo-city]

1 hour ago, andybarton said:

It's literally in their strap line:

Leica: Das Wesentliche

It's at the bottom of the 70 Years of M cameras webpage

https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/photography/70-years-leica-m

Yes but what I quoted was on their main page for the M11 - in the opening paragraphs. It’s clearly billed as state of the art in equal standing to its other attributes. 
 

Look I get it. It’s pared back to basics. But basics can coexist with state of the art tech. And I’m certain that was Leicas desire/intention. Hence the 60mp sensor. Basics  doesn’t require tech that’s out of date or functioning poorly/incorrectly. Far from it. That’s just bad engineering and/design choices. You don’t put a state of the art v90 capable SD card system in a camera and use old tech to make it slow and unstable as a way of ‘getting back to basics’. It just wasn’t done right. And I don’t think anyone participating in this topic can honestly say the M11 worked as well as it should. 

But thank you to that person for posting it because now I’ll think more carefully than I usually would about SD cards - currently I’ve got one f my standard sandisk cards (non uhs-ii) from other cameras. No point just ‘hoping for the best’ when people have already reported issues and card speeds. 
 

Anyone offended by comments calling out manufacturers failings should probably unfollow this or ignore me in their lists - I’ll be very happy to comment on everything I like about the camera (which hopefully ends up being the majority) but equally the same for any thoughts/annoyances/ failings. 
 

Thanks also to everyone for the extra tips so far. I’m hoping to have a good window today/tomorrow to start trying some of them out. Am hoping I manage to get at least one in-focus picture that I’m not ashamed of……. 😂