Velo-city Posted November 4 Author Share #21 Posted November 4 Advertisement (gone after registration) 50 minutes ago, newtoleica said: No, it's a case of what is required. No video, No fast burst shooting. No need for the fastest cards. Don’t want to derail my own topic with all these helpful tips including yours (thanks) - but I’d have to strongly disagree with that. It’s just bad product design and poor engineering to use such outdated underlying tech in a new camera at this level. The camera ‘not needing it’ is no excuse as the article clearly states it causes unreliability. Same for older gen usb. Same for anything else that doesn’t work properly. I haven’t had any issues with any decent brand name memory cards in any camera for probably decades. The first time it becomes a consideration is when purchasing a camera which retails at circa £8k and claims to be the pinnacle of rangefinder digital engineering from one of the most legendary brands in the world. Even the internally memory is apparently slower than an SD card. And it seems even a compatible good V90 card runs relatively slowly in an M11. Leica should do better, and should be called out when they don’t if they want to preserve their brand reputation. Even more so than the mainstream brands. The last thing they need is users defending them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 4 Posted November 4 Hi Velo-city, Take a look here M system tips for new user. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pedaes Posted November 4 Share #22 Posted November 4 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Velo-city said: poor engineering I think you do not understand what a Leica M is about. They don't try to be what they are not. And they are not for everyone. If you want the latest tech etc it is available in other cameras - why bother with a M (which I don't think you have yet) and then complain it hasn't got what it doesn't pretend to have. Even the pre-digital film M's were behind the curve in terms of supplementary features.They have always been about the essentials only, and will hopefully continue that way. If you are continuing your Leica M journey, you will find a lot of help in the "Frequently asked questions' section of the Forum Edited November 4 by pedaes 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted November 4 Share #23 Posted November 4 38 minutes ago, Velo-city said: And it seems even a compatible good V90 card runs relatively slowly in an M11. Oh dear. Please report your own experience. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velo-city Posted November 4 Author Share #24 Posted November 4 1 minute ago, pedaes said: I think you do not understand what a Leica M is about. They don't try and be what they are not. And they are not for everyone. If you want the latest tech etc it is available in other cameras - why bother with a M and then complain it hasn't got what it doesn't pretend to have. Respectfully I never said I knew what an M was about, quite openly discussing how I’m trying to find out. This isn’t about latest tech for the sake of it. What I’m talking about is a Leica design decision to apparently use older technology in their latest model, that causes the camera to become not only inferior speed-wise but unstable/unreliable. That’s obviously a poor choice by any manufacturer. It’s got nothing to do with rangefinders or the ‘ethos’ of the M system. And in fact I never read about this issue is all my research - it must have got buried under all the other issues.😂 I get the strong brand loyalty here but no need to be so defensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted November 4 Share #25 Posted November 4 34 minutes ago, Velo-city said: no need to be so defensive. Not being defensive, just trying to help you understand the context of the M series and to manage expectations. I know you haven't got a M, but key question would be what does it not do as a rangefinder camera for still pictures that would inhibit your image making. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyshire Man Posted November 4 Share #26 Posted November 4 (edited) I think you can love the camera and the usage experience but decry old tech that causes basic incompatibility. The SD card is the film and we’d all be up in arms if most film stock was ok but tri-x crashed the camera! Having said that I think the whole card paranoia is way overdone, the biggest issue causing freezes is essentially drive issues I think, ie the card is removed, the card changes when out of the camera, goes back in and camera gets the hump. So although I don’t typically use the SD card when I do it gets formatted in computer so as not to re-appear in the camera with the various unix hidden files that the Mac writes to the card. It’s not like it’s impossible to skip this but you are more likely to have issues. I do agree with you @pedaes in that for stills only and no video bonkers fast cards are not needed, I’d follow the manual advice from Leica though rather than internet forum voodoo! Edited November 4 by Derbyshire Man 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 4 Share #27 Posted November 4 Advertisement (gone after registration) I would try before complaining. The v90 cards i use (Delkin, ProGrade, Sandisk) are working fine since firmware 2.1.3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahesh Posted November 4 Share #28 Posted November 4 24 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said: I think you can love the camera and the usage experience but decry old tech that causes basic incompatibility. The SD card is the film and we’d all be up in arms if most film stock was ok but tri-x crashed the camera! Having said that I think the whole card paranoia is way overdone, the biggest issue causing freezes is essentially drive issues I think, ie the card is removed, the card changes when out of the camera, goes back in and camera gets the hump. So although I don’t typically use the SD card when I do it gets formatted in computer so as not to re-appear in the camera with the various unix hidden files that the Mac writes to the card. It’s not like it’s impossible to skip this but you are more likely to have issues. I do agree with you @pedaes in that for stills only and no video bonkers fast cards are not needed, I’d follow the manual advice from Leica though rather than internet forum voodoo! Looks like Leica does not think you need to format in the camera as they have omitted in M11-D as you know. I am not particularly bothered about it, as long as that does not cause any issue. @Velo-city Leica has never been the pinnacle of technology and these cameras have their quirks. The cost is what it is. If you are buying, you will have to do so with some risk that you might get some issue, you might have to send it to Leica for repairs and you may not have it back with you for a few months. Fortunately, it is not a car that stops in the middle of the road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyshire Man Posted November 4 Share #29 Posted November 4 22 minutes ago, Mahesh said: Looks like Leica does not think you need to format in the camera as they have omitted in M11-D as you know. I am not particularly bothered about it, as long as that does not cause any issue. @Velo-city Leica has never been the pinnacle of technology and these cameras have their quirks. The cost is what it is. If you are buying, you will have to do so with some risk that you might get some issue, you might have to send it to Leica for repairs and you may not have it back with you for a few months. Fortunately, it is not a car that stops in the middle of the road. This is because of the updated software with probably better drive error trapping (I’m seriously guessing here!) I think though the community on average is too tolerant of Leica’s faults, it can be a great product, with nice people, willing to launch niche cameras called for by users but flaky hardware/firmware, under resourced service departments, lack of service department booking system etc, is not something users should be cutting slack for, especially in such a profitable outfit! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted November 4 Share #30 Posted November 4 4 hours ago, Derbyshire Man said: This is because of the updated software with probably better drive error trapping (I’m seriously guessing here!) I think though the community on average is too tolerant of Leica’s faults, it can be a great product, with nice people, willing to launch niche cameras called for by users but flaky hardware/firmware, under resourced service departments, lack of service department booking system etc, is not something users should be cutting slack for, especially in such a profitable outfit! Too tolerant? We've seen years of loud complaining on this forum and elsewhere.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee S Posted November 4 Share #31 Posted November 4 15 minutes ago, maxpower said: Too tolerant? We've seen years of loud complaining on this forum and elsewhere.. True, they will only fix the issues when the cost to their bottom line exceeds the cost to fix. Freezing issues really put me off an upgrade. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyshire Man Posted November 4 Share #32 Posted November 4 24 minutes ago, maxpower said: Too tolerant? We've seen years of loud complaining on this forum and elsewhere.. Good point, some users/apologists! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
costa43 Posted November 4 Share #33 Posted November 4 I think an important one is learning to read distance relatively accurately. I tend to keep my lens at infinity and as I lift it to my eye I adjust focus to a point I know is close to my subject, at that point only the slightest of adjustments is usually required. After a while it becomes muscle memory and speeds up focusing a fair bit. It also helps when shooting from the hip or zone focusing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted November 5 Share #34 Posted November 5 14 hours ago, Velo-city said: Respectfully I never said I knew what an M was about, quite openly discussing how I’m trying to find out. This isn’t about latest tech for the sake of it. What I’m talking about is a Leica design decision to apparently use older technology in their latest model, that causes the camera to become not only inferior speed-wise but unstable/unreliable. That’s obviously a poor choice by any manufacturer. It’s got nothing to do with rangefinders or the ‘ethos’ of the M system. And in fact I never read about this issue is all my research - it must have got buried under all the other issues.😂 I get the strong brand loyalty here but no need to be so defensive. Don't have something more productive to be doing? Meanwhile the rest of us continue to use the M11 with no problems with the SD cards write speeds. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 5 Share #35 Posted November 5 21 hours ago, pedaes said: They have always been about the essentials only, and will hopefully continue that way. They even advertise them this way. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velo-city Posted November 5 Author Share #36 Posted November 5 (edited) 48 minutes ago, andybarton said: They even advertise them this way. Do they? Not entirely I wouldn’t say. From Leicas own website about the M11: ”Continuing this tradition, the latest addition to the family balances iconic design with exceptional state-of-the-art technology, making it one of the most compact full-frame camera systems in the world.” My original point was the surprise reading about apparently outdated tech causing compatibility / instability. Along with a slightly outdated usb. I didn’t make a huge deal but anything not pro-Leica seems to get a strong reaction here. In any case if I were to go in Leicas website I think it would actually be fair to expect the latest tech (as of 2022) in the M11. Edited November 5 by Velo-city Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 5 Share #37 Posted November 5 It's literally in their strap line: Leica: Das Wesentliche It's at the bottom of the 70 Years of M cameras webpage https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/photography/70-years-leica-m Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 5 Share #38 Posted November 5 It's all over the place Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/415742-m-system-tips-for-new-user/?do=findComment&comment=5686062'>More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 5 Share #39 Posted November 5 6 hours ago, Velo-city said: My original point was the surprise reading about apparently outdated tech causing compatibility / instability. Along with a slightly outdated usb. I didn’t make a huge deal but anything not pro-Leica seems to get a strong reaction here. In any case if I were to go in Leicas website I think it would actually be fair to expect the latest tech (as of 2022) in the M11. If you are expecting Leica to be at the bleeding edge of technology, competing head to head with the likes of Canon, Nikon and Sony, then you are going to be very disappointed. That is never going to happen. Yes, Leica need to invest more in their firmware writing skills and, somehow, increase the skilled labour in their repairs department. If you want a camera that is basically hand-made, Leica is the only game in town, unless you go to very, very highly specialised artisan companies. If you want a digital rangefinder which is compatible with 99% of Leica lenses going back 90 years, Leica are the only game in town.. If you consider the challenge of making a digital rangefinder, with basically 90 year old focussing technology, then Ms are a remarkable achievement. Basically, you either want a rangefinder camera, or you don't. Once you have made your mind up and the answer is "Yes I do", then you just need to choose which Leica you want. TBH, I couldn't give a monkey's what technology is in the latest Sony or Nikon. Their cameras are of no interest to me. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbyshire Man Posted November 5 Share #40 Posted November 5 Crikey, what a feisty bunch you are! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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