Do you shoot wide open or stopped down? (Noctilux, APO Summicron, modern Summilux)

[RexGig0]

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1. “Do you shoot wide open or stopped down?” Yes! No pun intended.

2. “How do you approach setting your aperture?” Well, my left thumb approaches the lens barrel from the left side, and my fingers approach the lens barrel from the right side. Let’s not over-think this. 😉

The environment, and creative choice, may combine to dictate the best aperture, at any given moment in time. I may want to creatively blur the background. I may want to separate the subject from the background, or, may want to clearly show both the subject and the environment. The background may be ugly, in a way that does not match the subject. I may simply need to feed the sensor every bit of available light, especially during our very long summers in southern Texas, during which the heat can compel me to shoot very early, or very late, when the temperature is tolerable. I may simply choose to shoot at night.

The transition from that which is in-focus, to that which is out-of-focus, is something that Leica’s Karbe-designed lenses can do very well. That effect is negated when I stop-down. I do not always want to see this effect, but when I want to see it, well, that is why I bought into the Leica M system, starting with a Summilux-M 50mm ASPH. I had just retired from a career in public service, the last seven years of which had involved much evidentiary/forensic/crime scene photography, which is normally shot stopped-down. I needed to try something different, in an attempt to continue to want to photograph much of anything. That pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, available at Houston Camera Exchange, in Texas, in early 2018, may well have “saved” my photography. So, while I do not always follow his advice to shoot wide-open, I do very much appreciate Peter Karbe’s work.

 

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[FrozenInTime]

Open and stopped down, switching often as the subject dictates, so I tend to keep x2- x32 variable ND filters on during daytime.

Wide open shots are always more challenging:  vignetting, rendition, image cohesion, nailing the focus and, near-far element composition, but also in post-processing - so I take Karbe's often quoted statement as pure marketing hyperbole.

 

[aficionados]

Sooner or later this discussion will turn into a request asking Leica to produce a fixed aperture lens. Let’s say Noctilux 50 f1.2, glue the aperture at f1.2 and remove the aperture ring. Then you guy will appreciate and stop whining 

[spydrxx]

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. All depends on what I perceive as the desired result. Lemmings follow a distinct path which ends their creativity.

[Stuart Richardson]

I remember once doing a print for an artist who had their work professionally photographed by a "pro" using a Hasselblad 30 something megapixel back back when most high end 35mm was at 12mp. He had shot the picture at f32 on his lens, so the entire image was soft. I think what Karbe is doing here is trying to reset the "optimal aperture" default, by suggesting that the very best lenses are now sharper at wider apertures than they are stopped down. I saw this myself on the 120mm APO Macro S. I made the mistake once of shooting it at 2.5 for a flat art copy work job (I had been stopped down to f8 I believe) and 2.5 was indeed sharper. But in this case it had more to do with stopping mirror vibration than the aperture itself. I think the giant elephant in the room is DOF, however. The best modern lenses are going to have a bit more microcontrast at f2 in the center than they would at f8, but ultimately most of your subject is going to be out of DOF unless you are shooting from an airplane. So I think "f8 and be there" is probably better now as "f5.6 and check your corner DOF". But like anything, any categorical statement is more than likely to be wrong (including this one).

[raizans]

I think it’s a subtle hint to avoid the sawteeth bokeh in so many new lenses. The aperture blades are so wavy these days, it shows up in OOF highlights when you stop down two stops. 😭

[evikne]

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46 minutes ago, aficionados said:

Sooner or later this discussion will turn into a request asking Leica to produce a fixed aperture lens. Let’s say Noctilux 50 f1.2, glue the aperture at f1.2 and remove the aperture ring. Then you guy will appreciate and stop whining 

I think I read once that Walter Mandler actually wanted to make such a lens. But I can't remember now where I read it.

[aficionados]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

I think I read once that Walter Mandler actually wanted to make such a lens. But I can't remember now where I read it.

 

56 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

You can adapt any Leica projector lens (or any other fast projector lens) to both M and L mounts and have fixed open aperture all the time. You just ad a focusing helicoid and you are good to go. And if you grow tired of fast aperture you can buy an iris adapter lol. These guys have made a business out of it.

 

Ok I’m going to do this . Mount my Noctilux 50/f1.2 to the M11 and leave the aperture at 1.2 to shoot everything on the 1 week trip to Japan to see how it goes . With electronic aperture of M11 I don’t see it going to be an exposure problem. But I may miss lots of focus 

[erl]

7 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Do it, it is a cool challenge. I am doing similar stuff now with Nokton 50/1, which beats every 50 Noctilux on the planet wide open in IQ.
 

Not everything is about image quality. 

[erl]

One picture is worth a thousand words, so here goes.

Would I prefer this image with greater DOF?

M6 & 50mm Cron wide open.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[grahamc]

I do both as it's fun. And depends on subject matter. But generally I also notice that very few of the photos I study and admire from the greats seems to have been shot wide open. So something I've been considering in my approach also rather than shouting with open aperture

Edited October 14, 2024 by grahamc

[Leicaboy Norway]

I heard him say this and actually I thought he went a little too far. 

I guess he's talking about not being nessescary to stop down for decent sharpness as you have to do with cheaper lenses and back in the days with a lot of lenses.

But shooting everything wide open sounds like a newbie that loves bokeh.

Take that statement with a pinch of salt.

Maybe it's the German to English translation gone a bit wrong.

Or the fact that he's in all fairness a brilliant engineer and probably not a brilliant photographer.

Generally I'd go out on a limb and say those rational oriented ppl usually aren't the most creative 🤷‍♂️

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, erl said:

One picture is worth a thousand words, so here goes.

Would I prefer this image with greater DOF?

M6 & 50mm Cron wide open.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

My view is that this image shows a demonstration of a technological possibility over photographic merit - an uninteresting image that I would pass straight by in a gallery. As such it makes no difference whether it has shallow depth of focus or not. It emphasises that this thread is about technical image quality and not about whether wide-open makes a better photograph, as Karbe's comment would imply, on the face of it.

I must be very clear both that this is just a personal opinion, and that I have a lot of respect for your work and other images you have posted.

[lct]

If this were a wildlife photo, a Karbe lens would allow to see the eyes of the porcupine 😄Just kidding.

[erl]

14 hours ago, Al Brown said:

The choice of focal length, color vs. BW, depth of field, crop, composition and all other photograph components is as subjective as picking the music one likes. What looks lovely to some might seem dull to others. This picture looks really nice but unless I see all the variants (the color version, more DoF, less DoF, wider crop, narrower perspective etc.) I am unable to decide which I prefer - I have no choice to choose from and thus cannot answer your question on preference.

My question to which you have responded was, would I prefer this image with greater DOF? Simple. Not a consideration of all the other variables you tried to introduce.

My answer would be no! That is because I already had the option of those choices and chose the one I posted. I don't expect any one to necessarily agree with me, but my preference is illustrated by my post. I am more than willing to 'fes up' to being a rebel when it comes to landscape photography in that I often choose to use shallow DOF. Not because I can, but because it fits my intention.

Thank you for bothering to assess my image from your POV.

[erl]

15 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My view is that this image shows a demonstration of a technological possibility over photographic merit - an uninteresting image that I would pass straight by in a gallery. As such it makes no difference whether it has shallow depth of focus or not. It emphasises that this thread is about technical image quality and not about whether wide-open makes a better photograph, as Karbe's comment would imply, on the face of it.

I must be very clear both that this is just a personal opinion, and that I have a lot of respect for your work and other images you have posted.

Thank you for your assessment. I am sure it is genuine. OTOH, I specifically made that image, and a number of others, to illustrate the local environment that I live in. Many people walk past the locations I have photographed and never 'see' them. One of my passions is to shoot what others cannot or will not shoot. Mainly because they look but do not see. Had I used a magnificent stand of trees, a cliched landscape topic, I could have garnered more  attention, but that was not my intention.

Thank you for your appreciation of my other works.

[JTLeica]

On 10/14/2024 at 8:31 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

I only drive my car at top speed.

Exactly my thoughts 😂

[erl]

Consequently you (both) miss the subtlety and beauty of the scenery you wiz past! 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[JTLeica]

2 minutes ago, erl said:

Consequently you (both) miss the subtlety and beauty of the scenery you wiz past! 

I was assuming that Local hero was being sarcastic and saying that he doesn’t really only ‘drive at top speed’ i.e shoot wide open. 
 

I rarely do unless with an APO summicron and at want to keep my iso down

[erl]

Curiously, I have just returned from a walk wherein I shot about 6 images with the Noctilux. Only half were wide open.