The Leica M11 images out of camera

[jaapv]

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By interpreting the questions and relating them to many decades of understanding the philosophy behind the M series As soon as anybody starts asking about SOOC results and talking advanced features red flags are raised. We have seen too many disappointed buyers come and go over the years. 

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[JoshuaR]

@Velo-city, one idea is to go to the DPReview sample gallery for the M11—they let you download both JPEG and RAW versions of the images. That way you can bring the RAWs into your editor of choice and see what's possible. The photos they offer aren't always the best, but they usually give you a good range of subjects:

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/5902531902/leica-m11-sample-gallery/9769738798

IMO, there's nothing nonsensical about wanting to look at RAW / unprocessed images. I do this all the time when I'm contemplating a new body or lens. I want to see how much latitude there is in post. Not a complicated idea. 

To answer your question specifically (I think): I find my images from my Leica M10-R and M10M to require less overall post-processing time than what I got from my Fuji X kit. And the new Leica cameras have "Leica Looks," which are kind of like film simulations. I would take a look at those, here:

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/photography/leica-looks

I don't use Leica Looks, however; I just automatically apply a preset to my photos that gives me results I like. Often I have to do nothing beyond that.

[don daniel]

Let's share a few unedited JPGs from the M11. It's not like it wouldn't be possible with the camera. Some pictures from Barcelona.

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[don daniel]

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[Velo-city]

Thank you @JoshuaRothman that’s exactly the kind of info I was after. I’ll download and take a look. 
 

Thanks @don daniel I’ll check out when back at my computer.  
 

We’re Leica looks new to M11? Did the RAW files improve in going from m10-m11 series? Or would an m10 be similar? (I understand there’s higher base iso and less DR from what I’ve read but that’s ok for me)

[Derbyshire Man]

I thought that would cause confusion. You don’t get Leica Looks on the M11 that would be ‘too low brow’. 
 

I’d have posted lots but I never shoot them!

[Velo-city]

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Oh I see, should have read link but am on phone at the mo. 
 

Still, quite interesting. I was quite impressed with the fotos app from my brief experience. 

[don daniel]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb Velo-city:

Thanks @don daniel I’ll check out when back at my computer.  
 

We’re Leica looks new to M11? Did the RAW files improve in going from m10-m11 series? Or would an m10 be similar? 

The RAW files from the M11 are significantly better than those from the M10, mainly due to the increased resolution. The higher pixel count captures much more detail, which is noticeable, especially in fine textures and larger prints. Despite the resolution bump, the M11 doesn’t produce more noise than the M10, in fact, it handles noise even better, offering cleaner images at higher ISOs. This makes the M11 RAW files more flexible, providing plenty of room for post-processing and creating different looks without sacrificing quality.

[lct]

Who cares about raw? 😉Just kidding but about 20 years ago, our digital Leicas had no raw or dng output available so we could only work on tif files with Photoshop or same. We used to call this "poor man's raw". OoC and PMR below (M11, ZM 50/1.5, f/2).

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[jaapv]

6 hours ago, don daniel said:

The RAW files from the M11 are significantly better than those from the M10, mainly due to the increased resolution. The higher pixel count captures much more detail, which is noticeable, especially in fine textures and larger prints. Despite the resolution bump, the M11 doesn’t produce more noise than the M10, in fact, it handles noise even better, offering cleaner images at higher ISOs. This makes the M11 RAW files more flexible, providing plenty of room for post-processing and creating different looks without sacrificing quality.

The greater number of details cannot carried through to print or screen resolution however.  Mainly useful for cropping.   I never use the pixel-shift 96 MP on my S5ii The real improvement for postprocessing is caused by higher dynamic range and acuity made possible by EUV lithography in the production of the chip   The. M11 sensor is indeed one of the best on the market. 

[jimtong]

I do not use SOOC photo unless for quick comparison. It depend on the lens you are using and if you are good at compensating the exposure. My experience is that with correct exposure setting, the SOOC photos are decent enough although I would prefer SOOC from GRIII or Fujifilm.

[Velo-city]

Managed to get a demo of an M10 and M11 at a Leica store earlier in the week, and at least get a feel for them, albeit very short.

The experience wasn't everything I'd hoped for.

I found the rangefinder less clear than my Mamiya, and the primitive info within the viewfinder disappointing.  Most interestingly as an x100v user I found myself trying to flick the switch to go from optical to EVF!  (I'm certain that in reality once anyone experienced a hybrid viewfinder on something like a Leica, all but a few diehards would find it a great improvement/asset).

I came to the conclusion that while they're beautifully made things (in terms of the physical casing at least), they're lacking in what I'd expect for the price - which for me has an emphasis in all areas: the firmware, the interface, support etc etc.  That's such a subjective thing for everyone of course, and probably wouldn't find much favour here so won't go into too much detail.  But my more general takeaway from the interaction was Leica seem somewhat confused about what they are in 2024, and I guess they walk a fine line between 'brand and heritage' and keeping lots of long-term loyal users happy, vs being pioneers of modern photography equipment - which IMO could be much better and more advanced while still being 'simple'.

Decided that I'll probably try and grab an older (cheaper) one first to see how I get on, despite preferring many of the advancements of the 11.  I'm also exploring a couple of MF digital options too, but I will be keeping an eye on an M12 release meanwhile (maybe next year?), to see which direction that goes.  I'm not in a rush....

Just to add for balance, I do like so many of the images here across the forum - and will definitely keep looking, it's a continuous inspiration.

Edited October 18, 2024 by Velo-city

[Ray Vonn]

3 hours ago, Velo-city said:

Managed to get a demo of an M10 and M11 at a Leica store earlier in the week, and at least get a feel for them, albeit very short.

The experience wasn't everything I'd hoped for.

I found the rangefinder less clear than my Mamiya, and the primitive info within the viewfinder disappointing.  Most interestingly as an x100v user I found myself trying to flick the switch to go from optical to EVF!  (I'm certain that in reality once anyone experienced a hybrid viewfinder on something like a Leica, all but a few diehards would find it a great improvement/asset).

I came to the conclusion that while they're beautifully made things (in terms of the physical casing at least), they're lacking in what I'd expect for the price - which for me has an emphasis in all areas: the firmware, the interface, support etc etc.  That's such a subjective thing for everyone of course, and probably wouldn't find much favour here so won't go into too much detail.  But my more general takeaway from the interaction was Leica seem somewhat confused about what they are in 2024, and I guess they walk a fine line between 'brand and heritage' and keeping lots of long-term loyal users happy, vs being pioneers of modern photography equipment - which IMO could be much better and more advanced while still being 'simple'.

Decided that I'll probably try and grab an older (cheaper) one first to see how I get on, despite preferring many of the advancements of the 11.  I'm also exploring a couple of MF digital options too, but I will be keeping an eye on an M12 release meanwhile (maybe next year?), to see which direction that goes.  I'm not in a rush....

Just to add for balance, I do like so many of the images here across the forum - and will definitely keep looking, it's a continuous inspiration.

I think what might happen there is the EVF would be used more and for my purposes that's why I'm glad it's not there, the risk of tempting me to stray away from the traditional rangefinder method (one of the main reasons I got into this in the first place) isn't there.

[Ne314satel]

I would recommend the author to start with the choice of optics. And with the principles of how to photograph with a Leica M camera. Because all this may not need to be discussed.

[JNK100]

It doesn't sound like an M is for you.

[jonoslack]

On 10/18/2024 at 10:54 AM, Velo-city said:

Managed to get a demo of an M10 and M11 at a Leica store earlier in the week, and at least get a feel for them, albeit very short.

The experience wasn't everything I'd hoped for.

I found the rangefinder less clear than my Mamiya, and the primitive info within the viewfinder disappointing.  Most interestingly as an x100v user I found myself trying to flick the switch to go from optical to EVF!  (I'm certain that in reality once anyone experienced a hybrid viewfinder on something like a Leica, all but a few diehards would find it a great improvement/asset).

 

Hi there - interesting points, I'll just take issue with this one, which rather implies that M users never tried anything else . . . . . we have! but the simplicity and the bright viewfinder together with being able to see around the motif is what attracts most of us - Leica have actually spent a lot of time and effort trying to develop a hybrid viewfinder (similar  to the X100v but with a real optical rangefinder) and come to the conclusion that you get a poorer quality rangefinder, and a poorer quality EVF. Possibly it would be better to have an alternative M camera with an EVF instead? Whatever, what I was getting at is that most of us relish the limitations of an M camera. 

All the best 

 

 

[Jeff S]

On 10/18/2024 at 5:54 AM, Velo-city said:

Managed to get a demo of an M10 and M11 at a Leica store earlier in the week, and at least get a feel for them, albeit very short.

The experience wasn't everything I'd hoped for.

I found the rangefinder less clear than my Mamiya, and the primitive info within the viewfinder disappointing.  Most interestingly as an x100v user I found myself trying to flick the switch to go from optical to EVF!  (I'm certain that in reality once anyone experienced a hybrid viewfinder on something like a Leica, all but a few diehards would find it a great improvement/asset).

I came to the conclusion that while they're beautifully made things (in terms of the physical casing at least), they're lacking in what I'd expect for the price - which for me has an emphasis in all areas: the firmware, the interface, support etc etc.  That's such a subjective thing for everyone of course, and probably wouldn't find much favour here so won't go into too much detail.  But my more general takeaway from the interaction was Leica seem somewhat confused about what they are in 2024, and I guess they walk a fine line between 'brand and heritage' and keeping lots of long-term loyal users happy, vs being pioneers of modern photography equipment - which IMO could be much better and more advanced while still being 'simple'.

Decided that I'll probably try and grab an older (cheaper) one first to see how I get on, despite preferring many of the advancements of the 11.  I'm also exploring a couple of MF digital options too, but I will be keeping an eye on an M12 release meanwhile (maybe next year?), to see which direction that goes.  I'm not in a rush....

Just to add for balance, I do like so many of the images here across the forum - and will definitely keep looking, it's a continuous inspiration.

Jaap was right. 
 

Using an M since the 80’s, the VF/RF provides a far better viewing and focusing experience for me (notably at my preferred 28/35/50 FLs) than alternatives, including hybrid. The simple VF and control interface is a huge plus. I immediately bonded with it all. The Fuji doesn’t have a true RF and, as Jono states, Leica won’t compromise. 
 

BTW, I also use an SL2, but that’s a totally different tool and shooting experience, for different circumstances. Since 1974, I’ve owned just about every type of camera, from 35mm to MF to 8x10; the M has been the only constant, now with the M10 Monochrom and M10-R.

Jeff

 

[Derbyshire Man]

On 10/18/2024 at 10:54 AM, Velo-city said:

Managed to get a demo of an M10 and M11 at a Leica store earlier in the week, and at least get a feel for them, albeit very short.

The experience wasn't everything I'd hoped for.

I found the rangefinder less clear than my Mamiya, and the primitive info within the viewfinder disappointing.  Most interestingly as an x100v user I found myself trying to flick the switch to go from optical to EVF!  (I'm certain that in reality once anyone experienced a hybrid viewfinder on something like a Leica, all but a few diehards would find it a great improvement/asset).

I came to the conclusion that while they're beautifully made things (in terms of the physical casing at least), they're lacking in what I'd expect for the price - which for me has an emphasis in all areas: the firmware, the interface, support etc etc.  That's such a subjective thing for everyone of course, and probably wouldn't find much favour here so won't go into too much detail.  But my more general takeaway from the interaction was Leica seem somewhat confused about what they are in 2024, and I guess they walk a fine line between 'brand and heritage' and keeping lots of long-term loyal users happy, vs being pioneers of modern photography equipment - which IMO could be much better and more advanced while still being 'simple'.

Decided that I'll probably try and grab an older (cheaper) one first to see how I get on, despite preferring many of the advancements of the 11.  I'm also exploring a couple of MF digital options too, but I will be keeping an eye on an M12 release meanwhile (maybe next year?), to see which direction that goes.  I'm not in a rush....

Just to add for balance, I do like so many of the images here across the forum - and will definitely keep looking, it's a continuous inspiration.

I think your suggestion of buying a second hand model is a good one, choose wisely and you'll lose little.

I suspect I'm a typical Leica owner in terms of broader camera experience, still having a slew of professional canon models (T90, 1DS range and 5D Mk4), Fuji xt1, 2, 3, 4, Fuji xPro-2, Pro-3 and X100IV. When I first thought of Leica I felt very much the same way and started with the Q2M as it had a modern EVF. I am now however a convert! For anything short of fast action/sport I am just as quick with manual focus as my autofocus cameras are (much more fast and reliable when one considers just how often they focus on the wrong thing!) and my photo's are usually better due to the overall approach. Even when it's dark I often find the rangefinder easier to focus than AF. Focus peaking on the Fuji's or optical viewfinder is nowhere near as good once one gets some experience with an actual rangefinder. I've not picked up the Canon since, I usually take my X100IV on holiday (handy for a night out, more capable after a glass of wine) but last week I took about 1,500 shots, of which 4 were on the Fuji! Including on the nights out and post glass of wine!

My search has been for size, direct control, performance and pleasure in use.

I'm not a loyal Leica user, in fact I'm about 9 months in and often constructively critical but I'm certainly a convert.

Would I buy an EVF M series camera? I thought I would in a flash but now I'm not so sure at all!

Obviously for some situations a M is totally the wrong tool but I find it hard to pick anything else up!

One place where I do agree is the VF information. I'd rather see exposure more similar to the ancient T90, not the rest of the guff just how my exposure compares to the cameras measurement with the ability to see the 4 or 5 stops above or below at the same time as the set shutter speed and ISO.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited October 20, 2024 by Derbyshire Man

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[hdmesa]

On 10/18/2024 at 3:54 AM, Velo-city said:

...But my more general takeaway from the interaction was Leica seem somewhat confused about what they are in 2024...

I think after using an M for a while, you will find it was not Leica, but you that was confused.

[Velo-city]

 

12 hours ago, Jeff S said:

....The Fuji doesn’t have a true RF and, as Jono states, Leica won’t compromise. 

 

I realise that.  Wasn't suggesting Leica just drop the Fuji module into their camera, as Fuji developed it for their needs - more the approach.  Leica would have to engineer for their use, with the optical mode also incorporating the rangefinder aspect. It actually feels pretty 'Leica' in that it's optical engineering, and quite ingenious - if Leica had done it first I'd imagine the reception from Leica users would be warmer....