A simple reply to one of my threads made me realize I'm not a Photographer

[pickerdd]

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8 hours ago, LanceR said:

@pickerdd I am curious what EVF settings you found so helpful for shooting M lenses with your SL camera.  Do you mind sharing?

I was able to adjust the EVF Diopter setting wheel for my astigmatism which enabled me to see more clearly with very few focusing issues. 

Edited October 9, 2024 by pickerdd

[pickerdd]

1 hour ago, pickerdd said:

I was able to adjust the EVF Diopter setting wheel for my astigmatism which enabled me to see more clearly with very few focusing issues. 

I meant to add - use the menu items in the EVF screen as the focus target when adjusting the diopter. 

[Tailwagger]

On 10/8/2024 at 6:02 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I've always been able to move systems seamlessly. Many photographers can.

The only time I've had a bit of a problem in this regard is when using two generations from the same vendor on the same shoot. I can get tripped up when the interface is similar, though not identical, and I'm in a hurry to deal with a fleeting moment.  In that sort of situation, I find it far easier to instinctively know what to do with two radically disparate bodies than a pair of closely related ones.  

[Planetwide]

I'll add my 2 cents... I think that you have lost your "vision". By this I mean, your passion to shoot. It is some thing that happens to all of us sooner or later, pro or amateur... Reconnecting is what is required, you do not need to shoot a past subject or photographic style, only one that excites you. Figure that out, pick up the camera that you already have (Don't buy another one) and go shoot it. Yes the cam/lens combo might not be perfect, but they never are, and the limitations imposed will spark creativity, which is what you need.

Lastly, be selfish, shoot what you want and don't worry about likes or opinions right now. Just go do it - push yourself.

IMHO

[Tailwagger]

22 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Yes, post work has always been considered no fun. But it can be, in the self rewards dept. if nothing else.

If you can't debug, you can't code.

I always find it a little perplexing that many with serious intent seem to find post in the digital era overly burdensome.  No doubt  back in the glowing red light, chemical daze, I wasn't all that enamored with the tedium of the back end work, but with the move to digital all those years ago, I found that the ability to pull off formerly complex tasks in a few seconds or so restored a large part of the joy of photography.  It took a bit of commitment to learn the tools, but once that was out of the way, post has not been particularly taxing.  Certainly beats hell out of doing multiple test exposures or dodging and burning with cardboard.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Tailwagger

[Archiver]

Perhaps you have tied the idea of 'being a photographer' to having certain kinds of gear, or meeting particular standards of imaging. There are any number of iPhone photographers who produce excellent images, and this comes from understanding their gear and being able to create the images they want within iPhone limitations.

Is there any shame in not thinking of yourself as a photographer? Did you used to think of yourself as a photographer with pride? For many years, I never thought of myself as a photographer because I was self taught, and took photos of everything and anything because I just enjoyed the process and had a wide threshold for results. To my mind, a 'photographer' was someone who knew their kit and was able to reliably deliver desired images, preferably someone who had studied photography officially, and maybe even made a living from it. What does 'being a photographer' mean to you? How do you define 'a photographer'?

Your SL2S might be too large to carry on a regular basis. Some carry a DSLR with a zoom lens, others carry a small mirrorless camera, others a Leica M or a Q. It's all about what you're comfortable with. As they say, the best camera is the one you have with you, and you've always got your phone. I wonder if it's not that you don't like using cameras, but that your SL2S and Canon are outside your general sense of carrying comfort, and that it's just more convenient to carry and use your iPhone.

Have you had much success with any of the larger sensor compact cameras like the Ricoh GR series, or the Sony RX100 series? Not to stoke the GAS, but a tiny and excellent camera that you can take anywhere might be what does it for you, especially when you see the results. An iPhone may be very versatile, but it will never create the same image quality and look as a Ricoh GR III.

There's an online trend towards buying older micro four thirds cameras and small lenses as go-anywhere cameras - I used to carry a miniscule Panasonic GM1 with Olympus 25/1.8, and it took some fantastic images, and it was small enough to always be with me.

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[Luke_Miller]

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13 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

....... but with the move to digital all those years ago, I found that the ability to pull off formerly complex tasks in a few seconds or so restored a large part of the joy of photography.  It took a bit of commitment to learn the tools, but once that was out of the way, post has not been particularly taxing.  

I agree. I do a lot of shooting in challenging lighting and the ability to edit exposure and white balance selectively in the image (as one example) has greatly improved some of my shots.  One venue I shoot in regularly has tungsten lighting in one area, fluorescent in another and daylight through stained glass throughout.  It takes several different white balance settings in the image to produce a shot without weird colors.

[lencap]

Interesting posts, thanks everyone.  In my initial post, as the previous posts highlight, I didn’t describe very much about what I meant about how I view being a photographer.  As I think about it more deeply, to me, a photographer is someone who has a vision in mind about how to create a particular image, along with the skill to use whatever gear is at hand to manifest that vision.

My nephew is a professional photographer, and the term professional is part of my concept of what makes a person a photographer instead of a “picture taker”.  His gear isn’t the newest, or exceptionally expensive, it’s a Canon EOS system with a few lenses.  Yet he knows the gear so well, and the strengths and weaknesses of that gear, that he can almost instantly compose and create a very appealing image.  He uses light in ways that highlight the subject, frames everything with great care and seemingly without effort.  Invariably his images draw me into them.  
 

One thing this thread has highlighted is that regardless of my gear his images always draw my eye more so than mine.  And that also helps clarify my conundrum.  I may have the means to get “better gear”, but developing the talent to see photography as he does can’t be acquired without taking the time necessary to learn the craft as a professional would.  That doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate photography, but it does mean that assuming a new camera will make me a better photographer seems to be a fool’s errand.

Thanks to all for your comments - all are helpful and have given me more clarity and insight.

 

Edited October 10, 2024 by lencap

[Jeff S]

Some are born with a “good eye” for art and design; others need to work hard to develop it.  Toward this end, one can visit galleries, museums and fairs to study photos and paintings, take classes in drawing or painting, attend workshops with well respected artists/teachers, etc. Time and money spent on these activities likely provide far more bang for the buck than new gear.  
 

Better understanding, at a detailed level, why and how your nephew’s photos draw you in might help immensely.

Jeff

[lencap]

My nephew's photos emphasize the basics - exceptional use of light, composition and balance.  There is nothing in the frame that is by accident.  He is intentional, but does it without any apparent effort.  

Years ago I was taking a documentary studies certificate program using photos/video to tell the story.  Back then digital was in its infancy, but it was clear that it would become a very key part of the future.  My certificate topic was very challenging - hospice care from the perspective of the patient.   That work was very demanding, requiring discretion/near invisibility, and doing so in such a way as to be present to document end of life situations from a variety of perspectives without intruding in any way.  All of the work was done only upon consent of the people involved and their families.  I followed standard protocol - getting signed releases, limiting access and the like.  But in the end the final approval often was at the discretion of the next of kin.  Often they didn't want to share such personal and emotional events with others.  I fully understood, and the project was never completed -I abandoned it.  It was emotionally draining for the families and for me.  

In such a situation video cameras would be too intrusive, so I shot photos, mostly digital, mostly M body with a single lens and whatever light was available.  I learned the importance of having the right gear, and knowing how to use it quickly and effective was critical - there was little time for second shots, and little time to fiddle with controls/settings.  I typically set the M lens for zone focus with a wide depth of field using hypercritical focus - 5.6/8.0 most often setting the aperture to infinity and memorizing the sharp in focus range for each aperture.  That's when I really appreciated manual lenses with clear markings and scales.  In the changing light conditions (and different color temperatures - daylight by the window, incandescent or florescent bulbs) having the flexibility of digital settings was often the difference between getting the image or not.  Film would have been limiting, as would ISO film ratings when trying to shoot in available light.  That's when I really understood the benefits of the new digital technology.

Truth be told my heart is still in the M body world, a nearly silent shutter, lightweight and easy to place to get the angle/shot I wanted, and small enough to go unnoticed.  I've recently been reminded of this during these posts, and realize that technical precision isn't necessarily the primary consideration for creating photographically impactful images.  It makes me wonder about GAS and all the rest of the "hobby".  The M body, for the use I had in mind, was nearly ideal, yet I became more fixated on specs than the emotional impact of what I was doing.  Maybe it's time to take a break, learn what my SL kit can do and how to do it, and then reconsider what platform will give me the balance I want in terms of technical and emotional perspectives.  

As I said in the first post on this thread I didn't expect such a philosophical perspective, but now that we've explored this topic together for a bit, it seems as if the ingredients are there for a "great meal".  Now I have to have to decide what the full menu should be, and allow the time to correctly prepare the meal so it can be savored instead of gobbled down.  "Act in haste, repent at leisure" seems to have been the motto for many of my earlier decisions.  It's time to "refocus" (pun intended) and get it right this time.

Again, thanks for the replies - this forum is filled with friendly people and wonderful advice - thanks for both!

[IkarusJohn]

36 minutes ago, lencap said:

Maybe it's time to take a break, learn what my SL kit can do and how to do it, and then reconsider what platform will give me the balance I want in terms of technical and emotional perspectives.  

I think this is very wise.  There are so many choices and options available, we can find ourselves looking for the perfect camera that meets our needs, where it is probably better to find a camera system that has what we want, then learn to adapt to that system.

[redrocksjoe]

Just do what makes you happy. If buying new lenses and kits makes you happy and you can afford it, go for that. If it is defining goals and different photo projects, do that. 

This is your hobby dude, make sure your hobby is fun or move on to another one and come back to this later. 

-Joe

Edited October 10, 2024 by redrocksjoe

[lencap]

Conclusions:

• Photography has been an enjoyable hobby that has been part of my life for over 65 years, filled with lots of wonderful memories.  That's the starting point.
• Cameras are tools, and like tools each has a optimal function that it's designed to fill.  Just like a hammer and screwdriver are different, they are each part of a well designed toolbox.  I don't need to have a tool for every possible job that might come along, but the most common jobs should have the best quality tools.
• A good carpenter knows what he does best.  He'll learn new skills as needed, but he will enjoy his work the most when his interests align with his skills.  Seems to me my photography choices should do the same.

My job going forward, as I see it, is to apply what I just summarized:

• I don't have to be a professional to enjoy photography, and don't need to justify everything I enjoy about it.  Applying a "cost/benefit" analysis to my gear is similar to trying to quantify why a sunset is beautiful.  Just accept that the sunset is beautiful, and be grateful that you can enjoy it.
• Snap-On tools are designed for full time professionals with specialized needs to provide reliable performance for many years.  For less demanding tasks lower priced tools may do the job just as effectively.  Camera gear isn't much different - pick the quality you need and/or enjoy using.  
• Good tools remain good tools, and bad tools remain bad tools.  Choose wisely.

In practical terms:

• Obsessing over what gear I have reverses the natural order of photography.  What do I enjoy shooting, and why do I enjoy it?  When I'm doing that type of photography does my gear make the task easier and more enjoyable, or does it become frustrating?
• Is it frustrating because I don't have the skills to use the tool I have?  Take the time to learn how to use the tools I need.
• Is it frustrating because I don't have the right tool?  Can the tool I have be adapted to the job at hand or do I need another tool?  Consider the options and act accordingly.
• When I look at my photography toolbox I should pick tools that combine optimal function with maximum enjoyment.  

I think the above comments just about answer the questions I had in my initial post, but I hadn't been able to clarity them without your help. 

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THE HELP - this truly did clarify things for me, and I'll reread my own post from time to time to make sure the lesson sticks.

 

Edited October 10, 2024 by lencap

[Archiver]

@lencap It's fantastic that this thread has helped you figure out your position on photography and a path to move forward. You absolutely do not need to be a professional to enjoy photography, it's a hobby that has its own rewards that should only be measured by you. Developing your skills to create and execute a vision is something that takes dedicated activity, training yourself to know what looks good to you, and then understanding how to use your tools to make it happen. It's very helpful to look at works you truly enjoy and consider what you like, and how to replicate it. This heralds a change in your approach which will reap vast benefits over time.

Something that is often discussed is how specific cameras make you feel, with how they operate and sit in your hands, and the kind of images they produce. On another forum, I posited the idea of Cameras of Permanence, where a camera subjectively gives you the impression that you're creating images that have a sense of permanence or significance, like the images themselves will last a long time. I've yet to find a smartphone that gives me that sense, but my Leica M9 gives me this feeling all the time. I got that sense when I tried a SL2S a couple of times. Cameras are tools, and some tools are more enjoyable to use than others.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, lencap said:

Conclusions:

• Photography has been an enjoyable hobby that has been part of my life for over 65 years, filled with lots of wonderful memories.  That's the starting point.
• Cameras are tools, and like tools each has a optimal function that it's designed to fill.  Just like a hammer and screwdriver are different, they are each part of a well designed toolbox.  I don't need to have a tool for every possible job that might come along, but the most common jobs should have the best quality tools.
• A good carpenter knows what he does best.  He'll learn new skills as needed, but he will enjoy his work the most when his interests align with his skills.  Seems to me my photography choices should do the same.

My job going forward, as I see it, is to apply what I just summarized:

• I don't have to be a professional to enjoy photography, and don't need to justify everything I enjoy about it.  Applying a "cost/benefit" analysis to my gear is similar to trying to quantify why a sunset is beautiful.  Just accept that the sunset is beautiful, and be grateful that you can enjoy it.
• Snap-On tools are designed for full time professionals with specialized needs to provide reliable performance for many years.  For less demanding tasks lower priced tools may do the job just as effectively.  Camera gear isn't much different - pick the quality you need and/or enjoy using.  
• Good tools remain good tools, and bad tools remain bad tools.  Choose wisely.

In practical terms:

• Obsessing over what gear I have reverses the natural order of photography.  What do I enjoy shooting, and why do I enjoy it?  When I'm doing that type of photography does my gear make the task easier and more enjoyable, or does it become frustrating?
• Is it frustrating because I don't have the skills to use the tool I have?  Take the time to learn how to use the tools I need.
• Is it frustrating because I don't have the right tool?  Can the tool I have be adapted to the job at hand or do I need another tool?  Consider the options and act accordingly.
• When I look at my photography toolbox I should pick tools that combine optimal function with maximum enjoyment.  

I think the above comments just about answer the questions I had in my initial post, but I hadn't been able to clarity them without your help. 

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THE HELP - this truly did clarify things for me, and I'll reread my own post from time to time to make sure the lesson sticks.

 

Aside from your important question about deciding what you enjoy photographing, I don’t see much in practical terms about developing your vision and visual skills (not gear skills or choosing the right tool), and in expressing that vision (through printing, for instance, which you raised in your initial post). Not that you need to do this…nothing wrong with being content to just enjoy shooting… but your first post (and nephew reference) seemed to suggest broader concerns.  Maybe your nephew could offer practical assistance or suggestions.

Jeff

[lencap]

Jeff - I see your point, but I hadn't formulated a plan since I just arrived at a way to frame the path forward a few hours ago.  Now, as I view the broad stokes of the thread:

•  My first post had me wondering about my gear, not photography.  The thread led me to change the order starting with a given that I've enjoyed photography for a long time, and shifting my attention from the gear to how to see/compose/create an image is a first step in moving ahead;
• Realizing that I still enjoy photography I tried to remove my fixation on gear by realizing that any camera/lens is only a tool, and being attached to a single tool/brand/platform may be limiting me on how I free myself of those attachments (clearly I favor Leica, but there are lots of cameras out there, maybe there is another option);
• Whichever camera/platform I use should meet two objectives - provide the technical capability to manifest what I envision, and provide "intangible" satisfaction doing it.  I often find myself just enjoying the "feel" of Leica gear, the tactile response of the controls, the simplified menus - all hard to quantify, but significant.

To address the ToolBox itself:

• Actually read the entire Leica SL2-S owners manual from cover to cover.  Don't skim it, read it and digest the subtleties and nuances of the gear.  To do this I've several potential sources including the excellent Leica videos produced by Nick Rains and other voices with equally useful information.  These aren't designed to improve my photography, merely to educate me fully about the tools I already own so I can use them more effectively.  Reid Reviews, Jonathan Slack are highly useful sources, and a large array of well known Leicaphiles on YouTube with differing opinions (I welcome being challenged in my views to keep me from becoming biased); 
• Review several teaching tools I've had for years, but didn't digest fully.  These include several excellent training videos from Ming Thein (sadly he left his photography site to design and sell high end watches), and several books including Ansel Adams series and many others.  I find I learn better with video - see and do - rather than just reading.  Ming's work was very helpful and I've not studied it fully.  I also take several photography classes at various college OLLI classes - intended for seniors and covering several topics.  Most recently I took two classes on black and white photography.  One great tip from those classes was to change my EVF on the SL to Black and white instead of color.  It was a simple idea - see the world differently.  Instead of having my eye move to bright colors, see the images as shapes and tones.  The different perspective made me more aware of things in the frame that weren't necessary.  Omitting them when I composed simplified the image making it stronger.
• Another tip from the class, which I had forgotten until recently while reading the posts in this thread, chose your camera and one lens.  Shoot the same gear exclusively for at least three months.  Then look at the results and see what you find.  Last time I tried this I found that I wasn't using the Rule of Thirds very effectively.  It's not a law to use this tip, but combined with placement is the idea of what is the central point of the image.  Using the same lens/camera helped me see that.  So, another step is to review my photos and see what I tend to do most often, and then see how that affects my images.  I also found that doing uncomfortable things is helpful.  For example, I find Overgaard's work to be interesting.  He unabashedly favors M body camera with wide open apertures, lots of bokeh and an atmospheric look.  Ming Thein is almost the opposite, a more cinematic image, great depth of field with technical excellence and strong composition.  Which one is better?  It doesn't matter - what does matter is understanding how having a "style" affects how you create.  Challenging that assumption leads me to other thoughts that I wouldn't have considered.  I need to do more of this.

The final piece is the intangible aspect of photography.  It's beyond specs.  For me I have loved two camera experiences more than others.  One is the Hasselblad square negative created on black/white film that I explored years ago.  The haptics, feel, quality and unique viewing (waist high viewer) made me rethink everything.  I gave it up, but frankly don't know why.  Likely the cost and slower pace felt "out of step" with the growing dominance of DSLR cameras that could capture 20 fps and freeze sports action in amazing style (I bought Sports Illustrated just to look at the pictures).  I even learned to develop the B/W negatives, printing some at the local college dark room.  The second unique experience was my first Leica M.  I hadn't explored Leica earlier in life - a combination of not being near a local dealership, and a bigger lack of financial ability to even consider it.  When I got my M7 as my first Leica I didn't know what to expect.  My images were terrible, out of focus, poorly framed, and without a central theme/focal point.  Still, the quiet shutter, the lack of mirror slap (especially after the Hasselblad), and the small size of the lenses were like nothing I've ever had before.   Prior to these two cameras Nikon was my choice.  I've had nearly every film camera they made at one point or another, and several DSLR/Z bodies as well.  I still have the D5600/kit lens, and it's a remarkable little tool.

The point of this review is to address the intangibles.  The Nikon Z was an excellent camera - great lens choices/strong bodies, but the haptics didn't speak to me, nor did the menu system.  So despite having a technically excellent tool, I never bonded with it, and found the shooting experience unrewarding.  Both the Hasselblad and the M body Leica produced far less technically competent images, but both platforms left a smile on my face.  I now realize, after this thread, that my journey into the original Q was perhaps subconsciously an attempt to return to the wonderful manual M mount lenses, with my beloved manual markings, distance scale and the ability to zone and hypercritically focus.  And that may be why I was seriously convinced that the Q3 43 was my answer.  A combination of technical excellence and manual lens haptics.  The downside on the original Q is/was the 28mm focal length, one that I never did learn to like and still don't, and also addressed with the 43mm APO lens on the newest Q.  The lesson I learned was twofold - buy the gear that makes you smile, and trying to substitute that feeling will only lead to a dead end.  Same story with Hasselblad.  I didn't use that camera often, it's a hassle to use (thus the name!), but the results are worth the effort.  

And that's the final "next step".  Keep focused on the goal - don't get frustrated, don't expect perfection - it's a process and part of the fun is the journey.

Edited October 11, 2024 by lencap

[MarkP]

May I suggest that this interesting discussion be moved to the Bar as I think it may have much wider appeal than having it buried in an SL thread

[MarkP]

On 10/9/2024 at 6:59 PM, Al Brown said:

It definitely takes courage to confess all this. Many more "photographers" should perhaps do it once in their lives - confess to themselves where they stand. Nobody owes anything to the peer community, only to themselves. Knowing where you stand and where you see yourself is of utmost importance for the mental well-being. Being true to yourself is important even more. Some people will never do it though, mostly those with tons of money, but we can see on YouTube through some reviewers that money can buy every gear possible, but it can never buy talent.

Ok, here goes: I can take lots of technically perfect photos (using my almost technically perfect equipment) that are incredibly boring. But I take a few photos (technically perfect or not with my technically perfect equipment or not) that are fabulous. If I do say so myself! 🙂

Id just like to take a lot more of the latter.

Edited October 11, 2024 by MarkP

[LocalHero1953]

Since we are all telling you what to do, I hope you don't mind me doing the same..........😏

If you have decided it is photography you're interested in, not hardware*.........

Reading your post #64, I think you are still thinking about gear too much. I also think you are spending too much time reading manuals, taking classes, watching videos........ You should change your whole mindset from gear and learning rules from others to taking photos to develop your photographer's eye - your most important piece of kit. Take lots of photos and look at them and decide what you don't like about them. Since you can see that your nephew's photos are better than yours, look at his and decide why his are better, and then go out to take more photos to correct those faults. While I guess there may be some people who develop a photographer's eye by being taught it or reading about it in a book, I haven't come across any. Most good photographers either have an inborn photographer's eye, or develop it by looking, shooting, self-criticism - and repeating for the rest of their lives.

I have written this here before: there were two periods when my photography developed at the fastest rate: once when I moved to south east Asia, where I found vast opportunities for photography, rock bottom prices for film and D&P, and turnaround in an hour: I could take a roll of photos in a day's work (I'm a geologist) return to town and be reviewing my enprint photos that same evening. The second period was in my early days of digital with a M9: taking photos, seeing them on the EVF and correcting errors immediately, all at zero marginal cost. The common factors to both periods were the quantity of images I shot, and the immediacy and intensity of review/critique and reshooting (and the low marginal cost).

As for which gear to use, I would just say pick any camera and lens you're comfortable with and then forget about your choice. If you were starting out in the Leicaverse, I would say pick a Q, because it makes the fewest technical demands on a photographer. You can set it so as to forget about exposure and focus for most normal subjects, and concentrate on what you are actually seeing - as in WYSIWYG.

 

* FTAOD I like both

Edited October 11, 2024 by LocalHero1953

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[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You should change your whole mindset from gear and learning rules from others to taking photos to develop your photographer's eye - your most important piece of kit.

This is one of my main suggestions above (except I broaden to having a ‘good eye,’ not just photographic). And I agree that this is mostly innate. But I disagree about methods to grow and improve, including actively looking at all kinds of visual art, taking some drawing or painting courses, etc.  As for photo-specific growth, I agree about continual practice, but I also think workshops or tutoring from respected individuals can potentially provide valuable critique, and lessons learned, that one might not discern alone.  This can lead to more directed and purposeful practice. Printing can also be a useful way to document, evaluate and develop that growth. 

Jeff

Edited October 11, 2024 by Jeff S