Sensor resolution in next Leica M

[SrMi]

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On 10/5/2024 at 3:57 AM, o2mpx said:

Is there still opportunity for smaller pixels to get above 60mp in the next Leica M?

I believe new sensors with smaller pitches (higher resolutions) are in the works for both FF and MF cameras. However, I don't know whether they will be included in the next M. Leica may rather go for faster readout sensors (lower resolution) to eliminate the mechanical shutter and add IBIS. Or maybe not.

[Alberti]

On 10/6/2024 at 5:04 PM, lct said:

Most people don't want to print posters, they want to crop while keeping sharpness and for that they need high res sensors.

And an easy way is to have a new capability: a very simple but effective IBIS; for instance just in two dimensions. Small electromechanical.

I would sharpen just a tad. [I like my camera with IBIS.]

so improve the mountig for instance, not the sensor.

Or make it electronic-IBIS only for the binned outcome (I am sometimes using a binned sensor; never notice any artefact.)

[o2mpx]

On 10/6/2024 at 11:04 PM, lct said:

Most people don't want to print posters, they want to crop while keeping sharpness and for that they need high res sensors.

Exactly. 

I read that 35mm film is equivalent to about 87mp resolution. So we don’t have a 87mp sensor in a FF camera yet; plus if we crop, resolution drops accordingly. It would be great if we net down to no less than 26mp or more post crop. 

[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, o2mpx said:

Exactly. 

I read that 35mm film is equivalent to about 87mp resolution. So we don’t have a 87mp sensor in a FF camera yet; plus if we crop, resolution drops accordingly. It would be great if we net down to no less than 26mp or more post crop. 

AFAIK, 35mm film has about 6-10MP resolution.

[lct]

Never heard of those 87mp so far but i'm not sure references to film are relevant. Aside from cropping in PP, which i don't do normally, cropping car be done by L-mount cameras when using APS lenses in crop mode, for instance, or by M-mount ones when using the Leica Perspective Control tool which crops more or less the frame to adjust perspective accordingly.

[o2mpx]

The 87mp came from Ken Rockwell…

Perhaps it’s incorrect  

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/film-resolution.htm

[LocalHero1953]

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I have tried scanning 35mm film with a 24mp SL2-S using pixel-shift. It gained nothing in IQ over just 24mp - I just got higher resolution of the film grain. 

[THEME]

On 10/9/2024 at 4:57 PM, SrMi said:

You can shoot now with ISO 100k: expose with ISO 50k and set -1 EC.

Even less need for an M12, 13, 14.

[SrMi]

22 minutes ago, THEME said:

Even less need for an M12, 13, 14.

There may not be the need, but there is the want 😁.

In my book, IBIS is the only significant missing item from the M11, but I am fine shooting without it.

[THEME]

44 minutes ago, SrMi said:

There may not be the need, but there is the want 😁.

In my book, IBIS is the only significant missing item from the M11, but I am fine shooting without it.

For sake of battery life and experience, not needing any of that clutter. Would buy an Oly or Sony for all those bells and whistles.

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, THEME said:

For sake of battery life and experience, not needing any of that clutter. Would buy an Oly or Sony for all those bells and whistles.

IBIS does not use relevant amount of power. It would allow me to shoot larger exposures and thus with less noise.

IBIS does not complicate the shooting experience in any way.

Edited October 12, 2024 by SrMi

[THEME]

9 minutes ago, SrMi said:

IBIS does not use relevant amount of power. It would allow me to shoot larger exposures and thus with less noise.

IBIS does not complicate the shooting experience in any way.

Imagine the outcry by purists. Leica would be sued.

[SrMi]

30 minutes ago, THEME said:

Imagine the outcry by purists. Leica would be sued.

Leica wanted to add it in M11, but the body would have been too thick.

[Kim Dahl]

Is there any indication that IBIS is on the next M12? a patent or something?

[thrid]

60MP is plenty for me.

Heck I would be happy with 40-45MP.

24MP works fine for most applications. I remember reading a paper a few years ago that Kodak estimated that a frame of 135 film contained at most 25MP of information. That's not counting more exotic films like Tech Pan etc. I think 36MP, 40MP or 45MP gives you a little wiggle room to straighten a frame or crop in a little. 

Regardless I would always take a bump in dynamic range and bit depth over a jump in resolution.
Or 1:1 frame lines in live view...

Edited November 1, 2024 by thrid

[FlashAndPoof]

On 10/7/2024 at 12:33 PM, lct said:

Leica will do their best to cram IBIS in the same package as the M11 i guess so i would not expect anything bigger, besides more speed and more resolution for the Visoflex.

You know, I’m beginning to increasingly believe IBIS will be coming for the M12. Just based on product timelines with the release of the recent M11 Safari, we should be due for the M12 in 1-2 years from now. And seeing as how Leica has to rely on outside production for their sensors, I don’t see any that have released in the last several years that could be considered an upgrade. I can only hope there’s a new one Sony is making behind the scenes for their A7RVI that they’re selling to Leica for the M12. The current sensor is still being used by Sony for their A7RV and was first introduced in their A7RIV back in 2019 so I’m hoping there’s a new sensor on the way. Sadly there’s been zero information on a replacement so I’m guessing that the M12 will try to lure M11 owners with promise of IBIS and other changes. Leica has shown they’re not afraid of making big changes in between generations and I’m wondering if the rumored M11-V is actually the M12. Other changes I’m guessing are a removal of the iso dial and improving the display. Then if Sony ever releases a next generation sensor, Leica will offer it in a R configuration so they don’t have to wait for Sony to release a M12.

[Kiwimac]

I’m not sure that there’s a reason to exceed where M is today, really - although I don’t suppose that will stop them trying!

 

 I’d say a new S body with the sensor used by Hasselblad and Fujifilm is a possibility. That would give those who want it a 102MP option (or maybe 150 depending on whether they use the current one or the next one)

 

 I’d think that they also need to keep a weather eye on the costs of these things. We know they are expensive, but they are already touching a point at which buying new is financially challenging even for those with good incomes. As an example, an M11-P Safari with a 50 Apo Summicron will cost NZ$35,000 today. The median salary here is about NZ$54,000. 
 

Generally NZ isn’t a high wage economy and it certainly is very far from a large market for Leica. However the principle will become ever more relevant elsewhere as prices rise. 

Edited June 30 by Kiwimac

[SrMi]

If IBIS is added to M12, then the mechanical shutter must be removed. This means that the M12 sensor must be stacked. Currently, the highest resolution stacked sensors are 50MP (Sony a1) and have a similar dynamic range as Leica M11.

[frame-it]

On 10/13/2024 at 3:18 AM, SrMi said:

Leica wanted to add it in M11, but the body would have been too thick.

if they actually put ibis in the m12 it would most prolly still have the m11 sensor resolution

or they can cutout an 80mp from >

https://www.sony-semicon.com/files/62/pdf/IMX461BQR_Flyer_ver10.pdf

 

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[SrMi]

1 minute ago, frame-it said:

if they actually put ibis in the m12 it would most prolly still have the m11 sensor resolution

or they can cutout an 80mp from >

https://www.sony-semicon.com/files/62/pdf/IMX461BQR_Flyer_ver10.pdf

 

Leica has said that they could only add IBIS if the mechanical shutter is removed. The current sensor is too slow to be without a mechanical shutter.