Not OT: 2008 A Very Tough Year to Come

[sdai]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

As part of the annual shopping event and a sneak peek of what could happen in 2008, I checked the going price of DSLRs in the boxing week and came across this:

 

5D for 2190 CAD at Aden Camera

 

Now combining with Canon Canada's double rebate offer, you can get another 700 dollar off on top of 2190 so eventually you could get a 12MP 35mm full frame DSLR for 1490 Canadian dollars ... which is 1520 USD, or 760 British pounds, or 1050 Euros.

 

What could Leica do? abandoning the entry and advanced amateurs segments altogether?

 

P/S: This guy is a very reputable dealer in Canada, ok? so don't bother to check resellerratings.com.

[rosuna]

 

What could Leica do? abandoning the entry and advanced amateurs segments altogether?

 

 

Leica is there with Panasonic.

 

The M and R lines are "pro" cameras.

 

The Canon 5D is a very affordable camera, and a great camera too. Leica must find new ways for improving the production (and for reducing costs) and for better electronics and software.

 

The R10 will be a interesting prove of the improvements in design and manufacture at Leica during the last two or three years.

[carstenw]

The 5D is also reasonably pro. The usual complaint with the 5D is the lack of seals, and the R cameras didn't have any in the past either. The plastic controls of the 5D might feel cheap or flimsy, but I have never heard of any failures and they are very similar to the controls on the top-of-the-line 1D series cameras. I don't think that the Leicas can differentiate themselves from cameras like the 5D or D300 by being more "pro", unless they go whole-hog, and tackle the 1D and D3 face-on with the R10 and up, not something I expect to happen.

 

However, the 5D falls down in the same two old places where all Canons fall down: sharpness of images and quality of colours, and the availability of top lenses. The image quality of even high-end Canons leave something to be desired. Apart from resolution, I am much more satisfied with the results of my M8 than with the 5D it replaced. Even when I had my 5D, I was using almost exclusively Leica lenses, finding the Canons quite disappointing, especially in the area of CA, and subtlety of colour gradations.

[earleygallery]

The UK price for a 5D body is £1300/1400 depending where you shop. Cashback is worth £130.

[mjh]

eventually you could get a 12MP 35mm full frame DSLR for 1490 Canadian dollars ... which is 1520 USD, or 760 British pounds, or 1050 Euros.

Yes, but that’s because the EOS 5D’s successor will probably be introduced in four weeks time and dealers are doing everything to clear their shelves.

 

What could Leica do? abandoning the entry and advanced amateurs segments altogether?

Leica is in the advanced amateur DSLR market only insofar as Panasonic is, so it mostly depends on what Panasonic will do. Leica and Panasonic haven’t been addressing the entry level DSLR market yet, and as of now, they couldn’t, even if they wanted to. As long as they have to rely on Olympus components at the core of their DSLR offerings, their FourThirds cameras will be too expensive to attract the entry level crowd. Of course, the R10 will be in a different price segment altogether.

[vic vic]

im not a potential R user, but it is really interesting where this company goes... i think the LEGEND of leica name starts to fade, especially from the moment when leica itself putted so much attention and promotion (its label/image formation) on digital and ignores almost completely anything else....

the trick with panasonic is nice.. i myself have dlux2 with leica logo on it... no problems... but if u count on that game and u say that this is leica ... well ..... :-)

 

now what about that R... what u get from that R ? again.. the old legendary image of leica is fading , so people will react less and less to the logo per se

u say great lenses... ok, take a look what u can have on the new fantastic nikon d3 full frame.... ZEISS lenses.. shockingly good... almost as perfectly good as u would expect from M system lenses from leica and zeiss ... well nikon themeselve make some very good lenses too if u want that ugly zoooooooom stuff ......

quality and reliability of leica ?...

quality of nikon is super too.... with modern manufacturing, a high quality can be achived without super expenses... and the quality of leica.. well , even that is fading... take a look at the M8 problmes, and no, it is not only electronic.. there are problem with newer leica mechanical cameras too, "old type manufacturing" with some "saving" strategies... old type manufacturing is great, but it does not go well with too much saving in order to reduce the prices in just a symbolic way...

 

so tough year is not only from cheaper canon full frame or its replacement camera.... tough years from the super quality side too....

[Guest tummydoc]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Your assessment is spot-on Vic, however there will always be people who have to have the most expensive and ecclectic brand of everything, and justify it by claiming to possess more discriminating taste than those who don't follow their choices. Thus there will always be a market for Leica--if that's the one they choose, either by design or default. The same holds true for a number of Swiss watches that bear "legendary" names and cost thousands of dollars but are powered by the same series of generic ETA movements found in watches costing only several hundred...and in a few cases, owned by the same mega-corporations.

[Jamie Roberts]

Vinay, Vic...

 

What the R gives me is a manually focused camera designed to be manually focused, even in low light. This is important to me. There is simply no comparison in low light with an AF system and an R (or M)--I'm much faster and more accurate with my Nocti on the M8 than my 5d with a 50 1.2L. And manually focussing Canon lenses is no treat.

 

Of course, when it focuses the 5d is great, and even better with Leica glass. But even with focus confirming adapters and Canon's best screens (and other people's best screens, come to that), the 5d is just too dim to focus quickly in low light (and it's better than the Mark 2s in this regard). Haven't played with the Mark 3s yet, but I'd be suprised if they're much better.

 

So to me, if Leica can capiliize on that strength with the R, and the ergonomics of the M, they will still have a market. Small, to be sure, but a market nonethless. On the R they could even flirt with autofocus if it didn't affect the manual aspects of the system that make it, really, a joy to focus (but they should make it 5d-sized, please).

 

Of course, I've yet to see a D3... it will be interesting to see how easy it is to turn all the automation on the camera "OFF"

[sdai]

The 1Ds Mark III viewfinder is massively improved over the one found in the 1Ds Mark II, Jamie. You can find very detailed description about the completely redesigned pentaprism and viewfinder on page 14/15 of the 1Ds Mark III white paper.

 

Canon EOS 1Ds Mark III White Paper

[telyt]

The 1Ds Mark III viewfinder is massively improved over the one found in the 1Ds Mark II

 

Less distortion! Not as tiny! What does this say about the viewfinders on Canon's previous cameras?

 

.76 magnification may be better than other Canons but it still isn't that great, and the white paper doesn't even discuss light transmission or contrast. Pffftttt. The SL viewfinder rocks.

[lct]

My little R4s VF is not far from 1:1 either. Why is it difficult to do the same in digital?

[Your Old Dog]

I am not yet a Leica owner. But after wanting one for most of my life I can tell you that I will own one (M8) before they plant me.

 

As long as Leica continues to put out superior images to hang on the wall they will be sold no matter what the cost. I'm a B&W freak and after the thousands of forum images I've looked at, more people are grinding out more stellar B&W while images with Leica than with the Nikon system sitting on the floor next to me. I am not subject to advertising hype but the proof is in the images. I can see a difference.

 

I also like the simplicity of the Leica. My DSLR has more menus to get lost in but I didn't have that 50 years ago and I don't want or need it all now.

 

Quality will always sell.

[vic vic]

ray ... first of all, make sure that the company u dreamed about is still the same u dreamed about...

second... if u r b/w lover - take b/w film... dont fool yourself like all those brand fanats or even worse, those ignorants that have no idea about b/w beyound interent files...

lecia with superior images ? ya sure.. we see it all around on the interent.. many of those "superior" images i would not post even as nokia phone camera example , this is your point of referance of exelent stuff ?... they are so dull photographically..... resolution resolution .... give me a brake with this shit talks.....

u talk about 5K$ camera with another about 5k$ for lenses, with enourmous electro and digi problems and colour troubles etc..... :-) so do yourself a favor .. see things at least two-dimensionally if u dont want to see it three-dimensionally :-)

 

 

jamie.. ah i thought u use Ms (from leica).... anyway..... ya sure.... but lets say.. what is the point to treat a company like leica and its products like INFANTILE child when it doesnot deleiver goods as minimally expected from it (according to prices at least not to mention the herritage etc).... they do not hold compettion - neither clearly superior product from one hhand and nor within stream range of products from the other hand.... seriously, u want menual (i perfectly understand u).. u can do it with those ZEISS on nikon wether it is d3 or the smaller sensor new version..... the quality is really supreme by all standards with that same mechanic exellence....

 

vinay - ya .. lets face the truth...... as customer, treat leica company as infantile child , and they will treat themselve and u back just the same way.....

no problems about swiss watch companies.... this is how they call themselve - swiss watch companies......

but leica confuses themelve and of course the customers who still keep on paying untill some of them will see "swiss made watch" in it and will keep on paying for that as it is or mostly, stop participating in this sick game cause they just want an exellent foto-tool in competitive market offers, not to mention that many just sincerely want to make good photography (and not only own good foto-instrument)

[jdlaing]

For Leica..................... price is not an object.

[mjh]

My little R4s VF is not far from 1:1 either. Why is it difficult to do the same in digital?

Quite possible in fact. But as far as I am concerned, the x0.76 viewfinder of of the EOS-1Ds Mark III suits me just fine – I’m wearing glasses, though.

[hdg]

The most important question is: What about the R10? Will it come soon or must we wait for another year?

You can discuss details but without doubt the R10 must have certain qualities to be acceptable by the R-user for use with their existing R-lences and in order to prevent switching over to to C or N.

I think the price of the body will be on place two because the combination of body and lences makes the results.

 

Based on these ideas comparing the existing Panasonics with the R-system is not a correct way.

 

Regards Hans (happy with R9+DMR)

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

jamie.. ah i thought u use Ms (from leica).... anyway..... ya sure.... but lets say.. what is the point to treat a company like leica and its products like INFANTILE child when it doesnot deleiver goods as minimally expected from it (according to prices at least not to mention the herritage etc).... they do not hold compettion - neither clearly superior product from one hhand and nor within stream range of products from the other hand.... seriously, u want menual (i perfectly understand u).. u can do it with those ZEISS on nikon wether it is d3 or the smaller sensor new version..... the quality is really supreme by all standards with that same mechanic exellence....

{snipped}

 

Vic--I use Ms (digital and film) and the DMR / R9--and Canons too. Whatever gets the job done is the right camera. The 5d is the best "all-rounder" Canon ever made, IMO; it's not even a 1ds2 in terms of durability, but it does all things pretty well.

 

But, given its "design age," the DMR is still a pretty amazing camera, with all its ergonomic compromises. The colour depth is astounding, and, as I said, it's made to be manually focused, which I have said silent thank-yous for many times! It's also what? 18 months old as a design? Actually even older, if you count how long Leica had it in development.

 

So we'll have to wait and see what they come up with; for me, even something evolutionary in terms of size and battery life would be reason enough to sell the DMR and get the replacement. But given the relative silence on the R system, I think they may have something more surprising up their sleeves.

 

Having said all that, I agree with you, in general, on Zeiss glass, and I've played with some of their newer stuff and it's very good. When my local stores get the D3 in stock, I'll check it out.

 

@ Simon--I'll have to look closer at the Mark3s as well. When I briefly used a 1d3 last year I didn't notice a huge improvement in manual focusing, though it's true the focus points were easier to see

[Guest tummydoc]

Jamie, I understand your point regarding focussing an AF-SLR in dim light, however the numerous times I've used a Leica R8 or R9 over the years I wasn't altogether impressed by its ability to be focussed in dim light, in fact I didn't think it was appreciably better than an AF-SLR although the increased magnification is a plus. Many people had expressed hopes online that the R9 would include some form of electronic focus confirmation and were rather disappointed when it failed to materialise, so it's clear that I'm not the only one who found the R8-R9 viewfinder underwhelming. If the R10 viewfinder harkens back to the SL, well, now you're talking. I can't think of another SLR with as brilliant and snap-to focussability as the SL/SL2.

[sdai]

My little R4s VF is not far from 1:1 either. Why is it difficult to do the same in digital?

 

The R4s has a 92% coverage at 0.85x (or 0.87x ... I'm not 100% sure) and the R9 does 93% at 0.75x, LCT ... I have never had a SL or SL2 and I couldn't find any accurate info about their viewfinder coverage and magnification factor. I do find some references in the Nippon Camera Yearbook, at its time, the only camera which provided 100% VF coverage is the Nikon F.

 

I think that Leica never had a camera having 100% viewfinder coverage ... correct me if I'm wrong please.

 

Anyways, the 1Ds Mark III's 100%@0.76x is already more than the R9's 93%@0.75x.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[sdai]

@ Simon--I'll have to look closer at the Mark3s as well. When I briefly used a 1d3 last year I didn't notice a huge improvement in manual focusing, though it's true the focus points were easier to see

 

Jamie, the 1D Mark3's pentaprism basically uses the same material as the the 1D Mark II N did while the pentaprism for 1Ds Mark III is a complete redesign with newer material.

 

Also, the 1D Mark III uses a dichroic mirror system while the 1Ds Mark III uses a dichroic prism system.