RF patch tilted clockwise

[icloudfiles]

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Would you happen to know what needs to be adjusted if the RF patch is tilted slightly (clockwise direction) for eg. if you put a pencil on the table and try to focus, it never actually aligns but rather makes a cross (x) if that makes sense. At no point is the pencil in the patch parallel to the actual pencil nor does it overlap perfectly when in focus. I get that some skew is normal but this seems way off. I noticed this after a long ride on my old Vespa (lots of vibration) Is there a 3rd screw somewhere besides the horizontal and vertical adjustment screws? Many thanks. 

[jaeger]

None of the adjustments are meant for patch leveling, It probably needs to send back to Leica for service.  

[Mute-on]

Sounds like vertical RF alignment might be off (two images are misaligned vertically). Adjustment is via screw on the front of the top plate, under the Leica dot. 

 

[Topsy]

If you have a straight line (your pencil) but you do not frame it at 90 degrees (straight on to the  vertical pencil) then the rangefinder can't give a precise image because some of the pencil is farther away and some of the pencil is closer than the point of focus. Check your rangefinder against a vertical straight line with your camera at 90 degrees to it.

[jaapv]

I would advise you to have the rangefinder completely adjusted by a reputed third-party service.

[LocalHero1953]

I agree with @Topsy - this may be normal behaviour. If you mean that the pencil is flat on the table aligned away from you, then it will form a cross; the point of focus is where the pencil images intersect. This happens all the time if (e.g.) there is a fence line running away from you.

If your pencil is vertical, parallel to the camera focal plane (it's easier to check with a window frame), and it forms a cross, then yes, something is off that cannot be fixed by the screw under the top plate.

Edited August 31, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[pgk]

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This sounds like the prism inside the rangefinder has become loose and is now misaligned (Vespa vibration?) and it will need a repair (precise realignment) by someone familiar with working on Leica rangefinders. Its not something that you are likely to be able to do yourself and I wouldn't leave it in case it loosens further or becomes detatched. You don't specify where you are - in some countries there are great independent repairers, in others it may need to visit the Leica importer.

[adan]

NORMAL! (probably) - as described by Topsy and LocalHero1953.

Remember that the whole idea of a rangefinder is two windows viewing the world from different directions (usually on either side of the lens)

So if the pencil is directly in front of the lens, the two RF views will show it slanted in opposite directions

        \       |       /
             |     |      
         (               ) (camera and lens)

Superimpose those two views (red) in the viewfinder, focused on the center of the pencil, and you get an X. And the center of the X, where the views coverage, is the point in focus.

Move in and out to focus on the near end of the pencil, or the far end, and you should see

\/    or    /\

[Topsy]

36 minutes ago, pgk said:

This sounds like the prism inside the rangefinder has become loose and is now misaligned (Vespa vibration?) and it will need a repair (precise realignment) by someone familiar with working on Leica rangefinders. Its not something that you are likely to be able to do yourself and I wouldn't leave it in case it loosens further or becomes detatched. You don't specify where you are - in some countries there are great independent repairers, in others it may need to visit the Leica importer.

If that was the case I would have to send all 6 of my Leicas for this precise realignment but when I focus on vertical upright straight lines (parallel to the film/sensor plane) I have no issues, @adan described it better than me.

 

BTW the closer the subject is the more pronounced the discrepency is.

To the OP just try an upright vertical before thinking the worst.

Edited August 31, 2024 by Topsy

[pgk]

1 hour ago, Topsy said:

BTW the closer the subject is the more pronounced the discrepency is.

I've tried this at the closest focus distance and whilst there is a marginal degree of parallax failure at the top and bottom of the rf patch it is anything but 'way off' as described in the OP. At worst it is very minor and needs to be looked for. I always focus using the central area in the rf patch anyway and I actually had to look for the top and bottom shift in the rf patch after having used Leicas for over 40 years. Hardly an issue and certainly couldn't be described as obvious in any way whatsoever.

I imagine that there is some degree of tolerance in the angular deviation of the prism in the rangefinder and at some point it might drift outside this and becomes obvious.

Edited August 31, 2024 by pgk

[jaapv]

And the camera only exhibited this behaviour after being subjected to strong vibrations.

[pgk]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

And the camera only exhibited this behaviour after being subjected to strong vibrations.

Yes but I'm never too worried about this as my cameras have been subject to a lot of such treatment (diveboats can be bad for heay vibrations and constant motion, some impacty, and this has never caused me any problems), but it could be the cause if the prism isn't sufficiently tightened up I suppose.

[jaapv]

It happened to me in an old Cessna

[LocalHero1953]

The rf on my M2 survived trips in an open door army helicopter in Southern Oman in 1981. That's my all time reference for maximum vibration. Sadly, the negatives didn't handle the climate very well.

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[icloudfiles]

5 hours ago, Topsy said:

If that was the case I would have to send all 6 of my Leicas for this precise realignment but when I focus on vertical upright straight lines (parallel to the film/sensor plane) I have no issues, @adan described it better than me.

 

BTW the closer the subject is the more pronounced the discrepency is.

To the OP just try an upright vertical before thinking the worst.

90 degrees parallel to the sensor plane is fine. Looking down at something on the table or the edge of the sidewalk forms a long X.

[icloudfiles]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

And the camera only exhibited this behaviour after being subjected to strong vibrations.

did you send it in then? What’s it like for you now… does looking down at a pencil at an angle overlap perfectly. 
 

 

[icloudfiles]

4 hours ago, pgk said:

I've tried this at the closest focus distance and whilst there is a marginal degree of parallax failure at the top and bottom of the rf patch it is anything but 'way off' as described in the OP. At worst it is very minor and needs to be looked for. I always focus using the central area in the rf patch anyway and I actually had to look for the top and bottom shift in the rf patch after having used Leicas for over 40 years. Hardly an issue and certainly couldn't be described as obvious in any way whatsoever.

I imagine that there is some degree of tolerance in the angular deviation of the prism in the rangefinder and at some point it might drift outside this and becomes obvious.

Bad enough that I get eye strain  after taking few photos. Didn’t happen before the Vespa ride. Maybe my retina needs realignment  will stop by the Leica store. 

[Topsy]

1 hour ago, icloudfiles said:

90 degrees parallel to the sensor plane is fine. Looking down at something on the table or the edge of the sidewalk forms a long X.

All 6 of my Leica Rangefinders are like that, always have been (plus 2 that I no longer have) I think it's just that angular parralax thing, be aware of it but I don't think any repair man can change it.

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, icloudfiles said:

did you send it in then? What’s it like for you now… does looking down at a pencil at an angle overlap perfectly. 
 

 

Well actually I drove over to Will van Manen and two glasses of wine later it was fine. 

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[a.noctilux]

3 hours ago, icloudfiles said:

Maybe my retina needs realignment  will stop by the Leica store

 Please report back when your retina realigned by the store.

 

...

I'm very glad having done last week catarac operation on right eye.

Never see around as well.

Nextweek will be the left eye turn.