35mm: Have Steel Rim Re-Issue. Sell my FLE for the APO?

[TheEyesHaveIt]

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Hello,

I've owned the 35 Summilux FLE v1 for a couple of years and it has served me well. For a recent trip, I purchased the 35mm Steel Rim Re-Issue - primarily due to the small size if I'm honest, but as I used it, I really enjoyed the very different and unique character of it at 1.4mm and don't really see much difference vs. the FLE when stopped down. I think I have quite a good copy and well calibrated to my M11 - very sharp. So now I'm thinking the FLE is somewhat redundant or not something I'm going to turn to that often. I was able to try the 35 APO Summicron and felt it had some interesting differentiation to offer in terms of the sharpness and the close focus distance (which I find very useful). I also was able to try the new FLE v2 which has the built in hood (helpful for keeping the transport size down) and closer MFD than the v1 - also much cheaper than the APO.

Anyway, contemplating selling my FLE v1 and getting the APO as a 35mm alternative to the Steel Rim. Any opinions and POV would be appreciated.

Cheers!

[28framelines]

People who own it or want it are probably gonna disagree, but just like the FLE, at most apertures, I highly doubt you’ll notice much of a difference. Especially if you get the APO, you’ll probably just wonder why you’d choose one small lens over the other due to similar performance at most apertures. Why not sell the FLE and treat yourself to a nice trip with a friend or loved one?

Edit: I also have the reissue, and I can’t imagine buying another 35. It’s perfect to me. I don’t even know if I would reach for another lens on this system. I love it.

Edited August 25, 2024 by 28framelines

[Sandokan]

Yes, sell the FLE. I also have the steel rim and love it. As for buying the Apo, it is a good lens but I have the old one which I am selling, so I didn't need it. However, I am a 50mm guy and have a few more than one  , so will not say "dont buy it". Enjoy the dilemna  

[chasdfg]

I'd shoot the steel rim reissue for a couple of months and see whether you do touch the 35FLE or not during that period. You may have more clarity about what you want longer term once the honeymoon period with steel rim reissue has passed. If you don't see much difference between the 35FLE and the steel rim when stopped down, you might not see much difference between the steel rim and 35apo stopped down either (the 35FLE and 35Apo are, to my eyes, similar in performance stopped down at say f5.6 onwards).

As you know, the 35apo is a beautiful lens with unique rendering wide open. The point of focus is bitingly sharp and the bokeh is so so smooth. It is compact and focuses close. If I were to pick 1 35mm lens in the world to use long term, it would be that. It pairs well with the steel rim reissue - but more so than the 35FLE? I'm not so sure.

Edited August 25, 2024 by chasdfg

[otto.f]

I don’t own the steel rim, but I would not say so soon that the APO is superfluous beside it. It is amazingly sharp while not clinical. I use it as a one body one lens combo on a day I don’t want to carry too much and not a bag either. One of its strengths is that you can crop very far without losing IQ, which is a pro for landscape, portrait and street. But it might be a very expensive lens if you also love your steel rim and do a lot of things with it which can not be done exclusively with the APO. 

Edited August 25, 2024 by otto.f

[costa43]

 I would suggest living with just the steel rim for a while and seeing if you miss a better corrected wide open performance and closer focusing distance. It could end up being the only 35mm you need. 

[hansvons]

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7 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

So now I'm thinking the FLE is somewhat redundant or not something I'm going to turn to that often. I was able to try the 35 APO Summicron and felt it had some interesting differentiation to offer in terms of the sharpness and the close focus distance (which I find very useful).

I’d look at this from a business/utility point of view. 

It reads like the Steel Rim is all you need. Why not selling the FLE and call it a day? Who says that selling means buying?

I’d rather focus on my photography than lens buying, especially if you already own an enjoyable, winning team. 

[patrickcolpron]

Short answer, no.

But do sell your FLE and get a 50/1.2 reissue to complement your Steel Rim Reissue, that is a wiser choice.

Damn long answer, in the 35 camp, I have an FLE V1 like you and a new Steel Rim reissue, plus a 35 APO and a 35 Summicron V4.

The FLE is nothing special, but extremely versatile, the out of focus rendering is not the best yet I have trouble parting with mine. It is highly practical and these days has become my beach and beater lens. I have no issues putting it on an M10-D and dropping it in my beach bag when on vacation.

The 35 V4 KOB is quite small and I find it to be a perfect size with it's original square hood on an M body. It has one major flaw, it is terrible against the light, it flares badly, I didn't bring it with me.

The Steel Rim Reissue is great against the light closed down, a perfect lens for street photography. Closed down the flare is awesomely controlled at f/4 to f/5.6 without any issue. Yet, I do have a couple of issues with the New Steel Rim, the black version was sold at a ridiculous price, I was offered one by Leica and declined. That was price gouging at best for a different finish with an inverted distance scale but in essence the exact same lens for way more money.

The reissue 1m MFD is an annoyance when I want to make photos of my boys Calvin and Hobbes, 4 and 6 year old kids. The reissue Ollux lens hood is useless and the included screw on lens hood looks terrible. I do love the lens, for its small size and flare handling on a late summer day when I do tend to shoot into the sun for street photos in Paris but these past few months I have been away from home. I also prefer it over the FLE and the KOB for that reason. I seldom use lens hoods anyways, I don't like lens hood period. I don't have the lens hood on either the FLE or the APO.

Which brings me to the APO, my desert Island 35 mil lens. First let me say the close focus on an M lens is nice to have but gimmicky, I seldom use it because I find it easier to nail focus with the range finder than I do with Live View, second it is not easy to nail sharp focus hand held at 30 cm, it's not a walk in the park. It is easier at 40 cm with the new FLE at 40 cm but I prefer the rendering of the FLE V1 vs the new V2. They may have the same optical formula but element are positioned differently in the barrel to allow the close focusing, not a huge difference in rendering but it is there, and not as pleasing. Close focusing is not something I use with a range finder, period. I wouldn't sell an FLE V1 for a V2 for that reason.

I could live with just the 35 APO, I couldn't live with just the new Steel Rim reissue. The APO has awesome color rendering, great contrasts, handles flare like no other lens, works great on digital and film, color and black and white, has no issue focusing down to 70cm. But it is bigger than the New Steel Rim, and it doesn't look as good as the new Steel Rim, the look of the camera and lenses I use play a part in how much, or not, I enjoy using a lens or camera when making photos. That is a factor to take into account in my opinion. The 35 APO isn't anything special in the looks and design department that's for sure.

On my last days of a 2 month vacation with my family, I brought the New Steel Rim, the FLE and the APO. Of all these three 35, I used the APO the most followed by the FLE. I only used the Steel Rim once.

And here goes what I loath people doing, offering a choice which is not in the original question. That other lens seldom mentioned to a 35 mil guy, a 50.

The other lens I used the most during my family vacation, paired with an M10 Monochrom or an M10R, a 50/1.2 Noctilux Reissue. I find that lens to be a much better complement to the Steel Rim Reissue than a 35 APO would ever be. 

Of course one camera one lens is always better, but a 50 with 35 is just such a perfect match. Even with it's 1m minimum focusing distance I can make great portraits of my kids and wife with this small 50 Noctilux, I can also make great landscape photos with it closed down and for everything else a 35 will do.

With the 50/1.2 you also get that unique rendering wide open, giving you sorta two lenses in one, and a usual sharp and modern look closed down. The best of both world plus greater separation from subject and background at f/4 than you get with a 35 a f/4 when at closer shooting distances. 

I also have four 50 mil lenses, the 50/1.2 reissue, a chrome 50 ASPH, a 50 APO, and a pristine old 50/1.5 Elmarit. Of all these I use the 50/1.2 the most. 

I am a 35 mil guy, I don't make this recommendation lightly, I do think you'd get more mileage out of the Noctilux 1.2 than you would out of the 35 APO but ... what do I know?   

I know that it would be as redundant to have a 35 APO and New Steel Rim as having an FLE and New Steel Rim is. I also know that both @hansvons and @28framelines are also right, and I mean selling doesn't mean buying and a trip with a loved one or friends is way more enriching than a new lens.

Life is short. 

Edited August 25, 2024 by patrickcolpron
Correcting an old man's rambling typed on his iPhone while sipping his morning coffee somewhere in the South of France

[patrickcolpron]

7 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

...  because there is nothing that you can do with APO that you could not do with FLE. Nothing.

Aside from close focusing, 

 

8 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

... my tip is DO NOT SELL THE FLE to buy the APO - you gain ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, ZERO, NADA, ZILCH. It will only put a temporary band aid on FOMO GAS, but bring you no benefit (except for one stop loss) for your photography.

You are absolutely right in this regard.

This said, the 35 APO has better contrast, and color rendering than both the FLE and Steel Rim, plus is has zero fringing. But being technically perfect doesn't had any benefit to anyone's photography. 

I wanted to and forgot to mention ...

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

I had the FLE and steel rim re-edition and sold the steel rim (the new one has dreadful bokeh, but so does the FLE). Bought the LLL 8-element clone and Nokton 35 MAP Anniversary edition instead. The original retro vibe is compensatedby my Old Delft Minor 35, sans the speed but with awesome character.

... strangely I'd take this advice very seriously, why stick to only Leica lenses? There are alternative out there that a lot of experienced people do really enjoy. There is something to it. But yea, FOMO GAS is useless, I'd rather stick to my old lenses than get the latest and greatest, to strictly focus on my compositions and photography. 

New gear doesn't do anything to improve one's photography or enjoyment of it compared to leveling up your photography skills. 

That's it, that's all I have to say on this subject 😉 

[a.noctilux]

Benefit of new gear is :

- help the economy (how that's big question)

- help prolonging photography ( largest contribution for photo industry)

- can help individual photography (but not always)

 

[RexGig0]

I have never seen, much less handled the APO 35, as there is very little “Leica culture,” in Texas, but, I agree that the Re-Issue Steel Rim can make an FLE redundant. There was a demonstrator FLE available, at a nearby Leica dealer, which I test-shot during two visits. I then decided to order a Re-Issue Steel Rim, when Leica USA’s site showed to have received some stock, in late June 2023. I did not need to visit the FLE a third time to know that I preferred the Steel Rim Re-Issue. So, well, this is a “half” answer. 😉

 

[TheEyesHaveIt]

Appreciate all the perspectives - and as was recommended, I won't make a rushed decision given I'm still new to the Steel Rim. I did some comparative shots today (along with my Sony 35 1.4 GM) and my current thoughts are:

- SR has a unique look at 1.4 as we all know while the FLE's character seems consistent across the aperture
- The SR looks indistinguishable in terms of sharpness and contrast compared to the FLE once you get past f2.8
- The SR is significantly smaller and lighter, even with the vented hood on it - an important factor for me
- The FLE has a 0.3m closer MFD - which can be handy on vacations
- The Sony GM is ridiculously sharp and contrasty from 1.4 onwards. More so than either Leica lens (I focused with the Visoflex 2 as well). It also is 3x the weight and size. After using the M system, I don't think I could ever lug a Sony full frame system with me on my vacations.

Maybe the APO would be as sharp and contrasty as the Sony in a much smaller (and much pricey) package? Unclear, but right now I am leaning towards selling the FLE and just keeping the SR as my 35mm lens.

Edited August 25, 2024 by TheEyesHaveIt

[brickftl]

I have the steel rim, it's my favorite lens. Open wide it produces a dreamy glowly look that I'm obsessed with. Stopped down it's plenty sharp. For that reason I think of it as a dual purpose lens. Here are pics I shot with it just last night. https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/2024-8-24-Asheville-downtown

I don't have the 35 lux FLE, but if I did, I'd be inclined to sell it.

 

[RexGig0]

 

1 hour ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Appreciate all the perspectives - and as was recommended, I won't make a rushed decision given I'm still new to the Steel Rim. I did some comparative shots today (along with my Sony 35 1.4 GM) and my current thoughts are:

- SR has a unique look at 1.4 as we all know while the FLE's character seems consistent across the aperture
- The SR looks indistinguishable in terms of sharpness and contrast compared to the FLE once you get past f2.8
- The SR is significantly smaller and lighter, even with the vented hood on it - an important factor for me
- The FLE has a 0.3m closer MFD - which can be handy on vacations
- The Sony GM is ridiculously sharp and contrasty from 1.4 onwards. More so than either Leica lens (I focused with the Visoflex 2 as well). It also is 3x the weight and size. After using the M system, I don't think I could ever lug a Sony full frame system with me on my vacations.

Maybe the APO would be as sharp and contrasty as the Sony in a much smaller (and much pricey) package? Unclear, but right now I am leaning towards selling the FLE and just keeping the SR as my 35mm lens.

I cannot address the Sony GM lenses, but, have no reason to doubt what Al Brown posted. For that matter, Leica’s own APO Summicron-SL 35mm ASPH is optically better-corrected than the APO Summicron-M 35mm ASPH. Leica, itself, acknowledges this. Of course, if compactness is a more important factor, the APO 35 M ASPH beats the APO 35 SL ASPH. The APO 35 M is so very special, because it packs so very much, into such a compact package.

 

[fil-m]

I have many Leica 35's including the Summilux pre-asph (early) v2, the aspherical, and Cron 8e, and I have to say from my very personal experience that the 35 APO is my most "productive" 35mm for street shooting, the one that allows me to concentrate on the essentials. When I use it, there is no so-hard-to-fight temptation to shoot at 1.4 with more missed shots. At the same time, its subtle yet beautiful signature makes me concentrate more on composition than other image characteristics. Its amazing sharpness allows me to crop without noticeable loss in quality when I don't want to miss the critical shot if I am still far from the subject, in a way that no other (compact) lens allows me to do, even when the subject is not centred. Last but not least, it is compact & well built. 

If I have to keep two 35's, I'd pick any early Leica 35 or reissue (ie SR, v2, aspherical/asph or Cron 8e) for the artistic possibilities especially for street portraits or family shots in which the strong signature brings an extra dimension, plus the APO 35 for the relaxed street shooting experience. If I just have to live with just a single 35, the APO 35. Though I admit that I could wake up tomorrow with a different choice depending on my mood 😆. Giving up a Leica lens is a risky endeavour!

Edited August 26, 2024 by fil-m

[pgk]

14 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

The Sony GM is ridiculously sharp and contrasty from 1.4 onwards. More so than either Leica lens (I focused with the Visoflex 2 as well). It also is 3x the weight and size. After using the M system, I don't think I could ever lug a Sony full frame system with me on my vacations.

Try the 35/1.8 - its no slouch either and a lot smaller. A7 bodies are not far off M bodies in terms of size. A7 body with 35/1.8 is a relatively cheap option which will deliver excellent imagery.

[iDont]

My my, why do we have the same exact thoughts. I have the same exact dilemma like you. Love the steel rim but I'm noticing the 1m MFD more than I thought I will. I'm a one lens guy only, thinking of the switch to the nocti 1.2 which is a 50mil. 

Not too sure if I will love the 50mil. Seeing the replies in this thread, makes me reconsider selling the steel rim. 

[patrickcolpron]

7 minutes ago, iDont said:

Not too sure if I will love the 50mil. Seeing the replies in this thread, makes me reconsider selling the steel rim. 

The 50/1.2 is a terrific lens, but has the same issue as the Steel Rim, 1 meter minimum focusing distance. 

If you are a 35 mil guy, a Summicron 35 V4 is, in my opinion, a better option. Same small size as the Steel Rim, lighter than the Steel Rim with a 70 cm MFD. Plus at f/4 to f/8 it is incredible on film too. 

This said the 50/1.2 is now my go to 50 mil lens, I prefer it over the 50 APO and the 50 ASPH. 

[Smudgerer]

2 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

The 50/1.2 is a terrific lens, but has the same issue as the Steel Rim, 1 meter minimum focusing distance. 

If you are a 35 mil guy, a Summicron 35 V4 is, in my opinion, a better option. Same small size as the Steel Rim, lighter than the Steel Rim with a 70 cm MFD. Plus at f/4 to f/8 it is incredible on film too. 

This said the 50/1.2 is now my go to 50 mil lens, I prefer it over the 50 APO and the 50 ASPH. 

Interesting discussion. At this moment I have my "as new" 35mm Summilux SR and a "as new" 35mm FLE for sale on consignment at a dealer I use quite a bit.........AND like Patrick I am a 35mm "guy", that's my preferred FL 90% of the time, so why am I trying to sell those two lenses?

First the SR when I bought it new it annoyed the hell out of me going through Leica's balls-up with the lens hoods and filter usage, it took too long to sort out and still it isn't right by a long chalk, compared to the Nokton Classic 1.4's hood and filter set-up Leica's was and still is a study in really bad design and awful customer relations on their part. The lens itself does however have a good "look" to it and in some ways it's a couple of lenses in one, softish / glow at 1.4 wide open but probably as good as the APO and FLE when stopped down past f4-f5.6. Like Patrick I would have vastly preferred it to have been available in black from the outset, but once again Leica truly pissed me off by effectively offering the exact same lens, in black, for more than twice the price. Do they do that on purpose? Like Patrick I too turned the offer of one down, ( maybe from the same Leica Store in Paris !?! ).

The FLE is as mentioned here a really good lens in most respects, but for me it is still too large, heavy for a 35mm and as I only use the rangefinder for focusing any lens the extended CF range is irrelevant, especially so on film M's that I am using more so nowadays than digital. On any M, film or digital, I prefer my lenses to be small and compact.

So now I have a 35mm Summilux f1.4 VII, a Summicron 35mm f2 V4, a Nokton Classic 35mm 1.4 SC, a silver LLL 35mm 8e collapsible for my M2's because it looks so "right" on them and it's a fine lens anyway, then the latest version of the VM Color Skopar 35 ( a superb little lens ), and there might be another one forgotten somewhere but yes ashamedly more than enough. If forced to prune further I would keep the Summilux VII and the Summicron V4, but so far there's no gun to my head.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Smudgerer
punctuation

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[patrickcolpron]

3 minutes ago, Smudgerer said:

So now I have a 35mm Summilux f1.4 VII, a Summicron 35mm f2 V4, a Nokton Classic 35mm 1.4 SC, a silver LLL 35mm 8e collapsible for my M2's because it looks so "right" on them and it's a fine lens anyway, then the latest version of the VM Color Skopar 35 ( a superb little lens ), yes ashamedly more than enough. If forced to prune further I would keep the Summilux VII and the Summicron V4, but so far there's no gun to my head.

After pressing "Submit Reply" I kicked myself for not mentioning there is are other lens options on the market these days, some of them absolutely terrific. 

Voigtlander lenses are no slouch and their latest offering is stellar and definitely worth considering. 

It is great to hear from people who share similar experience and preference in terms of focal length and lens sizes, who have and use lenses other than Leica on their M cameras.