Autofocus Comparison Leica SL2(-S) vs. Leica SL3

[hdmesa]

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17 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Using price as a metric for performance will always disappoint. By using the price metric, you should expect a Hasselblad to have better AFC (it doesn't have it at all) or my Omega to tell better time than my smart watch. I get that more expensive *should* mean better but better at what? There's more than one measurement of *better* in cameras than just AF performance. How about IQ? Or build quality?

But really, price is dependent on one thing and one thing only. What the market will bear. Do you think a new iPhone is worth what they ask? A cheaper Android phone bests it in every way. Except build and user experience. Sound familiar?

*****A general comment*****

In the good ol' days we all got to complain about how Leica sensors were behind (they weren't) or how they missed this feature or that. Now that they have basically the best IQ high-res sensor available, we need something new to whinge about because we spent a sh** ton of money on a new body. That's currently AFC and sensor read out speed. Well, if you buy the SL3 as a speed camera you bought the wrong camera and it's your fault. At no time ever, in history, has Leica been the *speed* brand. And what is this thing where every camera needs to have AF that does all the work for you? If the SL doesn't do what you need shut up and move on. There are plenty of options.

Leica was VERY clear (they made YouTube videos about it) that they were concentrating absolutely on three things. IQ, build quality and user experience. Have they not done that with the SL3? Is there anywhere on the Leica universe where they said, here's the best sports camera of all time? Nope. The sensor is a known quantity. So, stop bitching about something you should have researched before you dropped your cash. AFC isn't as fast as a Z8? But the Z8 and move on! It's boring and tiresome for the rest of us that did our research and bought the camera knowing what we were getting. If you're needing the fastest camera then Leica doesn't have anything of interest to you. Sorry. And the constant whining won't change that. Just move on. There are plenty of options out there. Nothing wrong with that. Apple won't put a touch screen on a MacBook? Don't like it? Get something else.....

But here's what you do get for your 7K. I've just returned from Iceland. Small group photography tour to the highlands. Lots of volcanic dust/dirt. Lots of wind. Lots of intermittent rain (but nothing really bad. we were lucky). Had a Canon and Sony shooter plus me with a pair of SL3's and K with her Canon and Q's. On three occasions the LCD on the A7R5 shooters camera glitched and became unresponsive for a bit. It recovered after an hour or so in the dry. And it wasn't raining all the time. Also, he was new to Sony and was constantly asking me (I have that camera) to help him find settings. My camera never missed a beat. In rain and waterfall spray and dust they were basically impervious. These guys were constantly hiding their camera under jackets, and I was wiping mine off in the van after an hour in the rain. I know what I bought the SL3 for. And this was it. Sometimes the other guys stayed in the van when the wind was blowing and the rain and dirt were flying. Me? I was out in it taking photos and wiping the camera off with a wet cloth after.

You buy into the SL3 for the IQ, build quality and simplicity. That's it. That's why I have my A1.

Gordon

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Well said. The SL cameras are the solid axle 4x4s of the camera world.

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[SrMi]

52 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Using price as a metric for performance will always disappoint. By using the price metric, you should expect a Hasselblad to have better AFC (it doesn't have it at all) or my Omega to tell better time than my smart watch. I get that more expensive *should* mean better but better at what? There's more than one measurement of *better* in cameras than just AF performance. How about IQ? Or build quality?

But really, price is dependent on one thing and one thing only. What the market will bear. Do you think a new iPhone is worth what they ask? A cheaper Android phone bests it in every way. Except build and user experience. Sound familiar?

*****A general comment*****

In the good ol' days we all got to complain about how Leica sensors were behind (they weren't) or how they missed this feature or that. Now that they have basically the best IQ high-res sensor available, we need something new to whinge about because we spent a sh** ton of money on a new body. That's currently AFC and sensor read out speed. Well, if you buy the SL3 as a speed camera you bought the wrong camera and it's your fault. At no time ever, in history, has Leica been the *speed* brand. And what is this thing where every camera needs to have AF that does all the work for you? If the SL doesn't do what you need shut up and move on. There are plenty of options.

Leica was VERY clear (they made YouTube videos about it) that they were concentrating absolutely on three things. IQ, build quality and user experience. Have they not done that with the SL3? Is there anywhere on the Leica universe where they said, here's the best sports camera of all time? Nope. The sensor is a known quantity. So, stop bitching about something you should have researched before you dropped your cash. AFC isn't as fast as a Z8? But the Z8 and move on! It's boring and tiresome for the rest of us that did our research and bought the camera knowing what we were getting. If you're needing the fastest camera then Leica doesn't have anything of interest to you. Sorry. And the constant whining won't change that. Just move on. There are plenty of options out there. Nothing wrong with that. Apple won't put a touch screen on a MacBook? Don't like it? Get something else.....

But here's what you do get for your 7K. I've just returned from Iceland. Small group photography tour to the highlands. Lots of volcanic dust/dirt. Lots of wind. Lots of intermittent rain (but nothing really bad. we were lucky). Had a Canon and Sony shooter plus me with a pair of SL3's and K with her Canon and Q's. On three occasions the LCD on the A7R5 shooters camera glitched and became unresponsive for a bit. It recovered after an hour or so in the dry. And it wasn't raining all the time. Also, he was new to Sony and was constantly asking me (I have that camera) to help him find settings. My camera never missed a beat. In rain and waterfall spray and dust they were basically impervious. These guys were constantly hiding their camera under jackets, and I was wiping mine off in the van after an hour in the rain. I know what I bought the SL3 for. And this was it. Sometimes the other guys stayed in the van when the wind was blowing and the rain and dirt were flying. Me? I was out in it taking photos and wiping the camera off with a wet cloth after.

You buy into the SL3 for the IQ, build quality and simplicity. That's it. That's why I have my A1.

Gordon

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+1

The sensor readout time is state of the art unless one does not care for the best IQ (same as a7rv).

Glad you made it safely back from Iceland. Several years ago I visited the ice cave that collapsed recently. I hope they can rescue people stuck inside.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

+1

The sensor readout time is state of the art unless one does not care for the best IQ (same as a7rv).

Glad you made it safely back from Iceland. Several years ago I visited the ice cave that collapsed recently. I hope they can rescue people stuck inside.

Thanks. Safe and it was wonderful. Absolutely spectacular. We did our cave visit in February, higher up on a different tongue by helicopter. Safer in winter. Missed the latest eruption as well.

Looks like they found everyone. The company seems to have counted wrong and no one else was missing.

Gordon

[Cronilux]

@FlashGordonPhotography I don’t think I can agree with you. I won’t write such a long paragraph like you did now. But your comparison simply lacks. 
 

I don’t think the IQ or build quality of the Leica SL line justifies the price. They don’t have better noise levels or dynamic range, than other competitors. So what else could one compare?
 

That being said, I love my Leica cameras for creating reasons and also dislike my Leica cameras for other reasons. I just wished, that I could get answers on topic here instead of people telling me, why I can’t judge the AF performance of the SL3. 

It almost sounds like some fanboys being sad about critique on Leica Cameras. We all don’t have to justify why we have expensive Leica gear, but that doesn’t mean we can’t ask for better performance.

[Photoworks]

19 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Using price as a metric for performance will always disappoint. By using the price metric, you should expect a Hasselblad to have better AFC (it doesn't have it at all) or my Omega to tell better time than my smart watch. I get that more expensive *should* mean better but better at what? There's more than one measurement of *better* in cameras than just AF performance. How about IQ? Or build quality?

But really, price is dependent on one thing and one thing only. What the market will bear. Do you think a new iPhone is worth what they ask? A cheaper Android phone bests it in every way. Except build and user experience. Sound familiar?

*****A general comment*****

In the good ol' days we all got to complain about how Leica sensors were behind (they weren't) or how they missed this feature or that. Now that they have basically the best IQ high-res sensor available, we need something new to whinge about because we spent a sh** ton of money on a new body. That's currently AFC and sensor read out speed. Well, if you buy the SL3 as a speed camera you bought the wrong camera and it's your fault. At no time ever, in history, has Leica been the *speed* brand. And what is this thing where every camera needs to have AF that does all the work for you? If the SL doesn't do what you need shut up and move on. There are plenty of options.

Leica was VERY clear (they made YouTube videos about it) that they were concentrating absolutely on three things. IQ, build quality and user experience. Have they not done that with the SL3? Is there anywhere on the Leica universe where they said, here's the best sports camera of all time? Nope. The sensor is a known quantity. So, stop bitching about something you should have researched before you dropped your cash. AFC isn't as fast as a Z8? But the Z8 and move on! It's boring and tiresome for the rest of us that did our research and bought the camera knowing what we were getting. If you're needing the fastest camera then Leica doesn't have anything of interest to you. Sorry. And the constant whining won't change that. Just move on. There are plenty of options out there. Nothing wrong with that. Apple won't put a touch screen on a MacBook? Don't like it? Get something else.....

But here's what you do get for your 7K. I've just returned from Iceland. Small group photography tour to the highlands. Lots of volcanic dust/dirt. Lots of wind. Lots of intermittent rain (but nothing really bad. we were lucky). Had a Canon and Sony shooter plus me with a pair of SL3's and K with her Canon and Q's. On three occasions the LCD on the A7R5 shooters camera glitched and became unresponsive for a bit. It recovered after an hour or so in the dry. And it wasn't raining all the time. Also, he was new to Sony and was constantly asking me (I have that camera) to help him find settings. My camera never missed a beat. In rain and waterfall spray and dust they were basically impervious. These guys were constantly hiding their camera under jackets, and I was wiping mine off in the van after an hour in the rain. I know what I bought the SL3 for. And this was it. Sometimes the other guys stayed in the van when the wind was blowing and the rain and dirt were flying. Me? I was out in it taking photos and wiping the camera off with a wet cloth after.

You buy into the SL3 for the IQ, build quality and simplicity. That's it. That's why I have my A1.

Gordon

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks for sharing! looks like a good trip.

+1  on the rant!

 

[Photoworks]

12 minutes ago, Cronilux said:

I don’t think the IQ or build quality of the Leica SL line justifies the price. They don’t have better noise levels or dynamic range, than other competitors. So what else could one compare?
 

That being said, I love my Leica cameras for creating reasons and also dislike my Leica cameras for other reasons. I just wished, that I could get answers on topic here instead of people telling me, why I can’t judge the AF performance of the SL3. 

It almost sounds like some fanboys being sad about critique on Leica Cameras. We all don’t have to justify why we have expensive Leica gear, but that doesn’t mean we can’t ask for better performance.

I think the world is telling you not to expect the miracle AF performance on an SL3, or the AI-powered AF from Sony. 
It is just what it is! and there is not much to compare until a firmware update.

For me, in my professional use, the SL3 gets 99% of the time, and the Sony stays at home untouched.
 

[SrMi]

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2 hours ago, Cronilux said:

@FlashGordonPhotography I don’t think I can agree with you. I won’t write such a long paragraph like you did now. But your comparison simply lacks. 
 

I don’t think the IQ or build quality of the Leica SL line justifies the price. They don’t have better noise levels or dynamic range, than other competitors. So what else could one compare?
 

That being said, I love my Leica cameras for creating reasons and also dislike my Leica cameras for other reasons. I just wished, that I could get answers on topic here instead of people telling me, why I can’t judge the AF performance of the SL3. 

It almost sounds like some fanboys being sad about critique on Leica Cameras. We all don’t have to justify why we have expensive Leica gear, but that doesn’t mean we can’t ask for better performance.

If you cannot see what the Leica SL series brings you, you should sell it.

I own and use Nikon, Fuji, and Sony cameras, and the SL3 is the most used FF camera. It would be best if you did not get upset that others find the SL3 the best photographic tool available for the kind of photography they do.

[Cronilux]

@SrMi I am not upset. All these answers are just off topic and not a single bit helpful. I don’t care how somebody likes a tool for their work. This thread is simply about technical specs and real life use of the tracking. I said numerous times, that I love my SL2-S in all other aspects. Thanks for not being helpful. 
 

As far as my informations go, the SL3-S should be released in the beginning of 2025 and its AF is said to be great. So let’s hope the best and wait for next year. I don’t think there will be firmware fix for the SL3 or that said update will change the AF performance a lot. 

Edited August 27, 2024 by Cronilux

[hdmesa]

26 minutes ago, Cronilux said:

@SrMi I am not upset. All these answers are just off topic and not a single bit helpful. I don’t care how somebody likes a tool for their work. This thread is simply about technical specs and real life use of the tracking. I said numerous times, that I love my SL2-S in all other aspects. Thanks for not being helpful. 
 

As far as my informations go, the SL3-S should be released in the beginning of 2025 and its AF is said to be great. So let’s hope the best and wait for next year. I don’t think there will be firmware fix for the SL3 or that said update will change the AF performance a lot. 

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again. Even if Leica were to get the SL3 firmware updated so that AF performance equaled the current Panasonic LUMIX, that (in my opinion) is not enough to put it on the same level as Canon and Sony, which due to their recent AI enhanced firmware, rarely ever miss.

Don't be fooled by the fast moving subject tracking boxes you see on recent LUMIX and Nikon cameras. Yes, they seem very sticky, but perfect AF at wide apertures on the iris of the subject's eye is still a grade below Canon and Sony. Shooting stopped down greatly improves things, of course.

All I'm saying is – it will be a cold day in hell before the SL3 AF matches Canon and Sony. We can hope they reach LUMIX level of performance, but it may take a few updates.

Editing the post to add: don't confuse "helpful because we're telling you the truth" versus "this is helpful because it somehow gives me a trick to greatly improve the SL2-S or SL3 AF". There are no such tricks to give these cameras LUMIX AF performance. But if you find one, please let the rest of us know 🙃

Edited August 27, 2024 by hdmesa

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, Cronilux said:

@FlashGordonPhotography I don’t think I can agree with you. I won’t write such a long paragraph like you did now. But your comparison simply lacks. 
 

I don’t think the IQ or build quality of the Leica SL line justifies the price. They don’t have better noise levels or dynamic range, than other competitors. So what else could one compare?
 

That being said, I love my Leica cameras for creating reasons and also dislike my Leica cameras for other reasons. I just wished, that I could get answers on topic here instead of people telling me, why I can’t judge the AF performance of the SL3. 

It almost sounds like some fanboys being sad about critique on Leica Cameras. We all don’t have to justify why we have expensive Leica gear, but that doesn’t mean we can’t ask for better performance.

You can judge the AF performance of the SL camera all you like. Just don't expect it to change. No amount of judging will change that. The camera is what it is and you get or move on. As for the rest, well you think that Leica competes with Canikony. There's your error right there. Leica barely acknowledges their existance.

If you read many of my post on the SL3, I think you'll find I've been extremely critical where I think it's valid. Some called me a hater. You called me a fanboy. Perhaps I'm somewhere in the middle. The SL3 is hghly flawed. But mostly that's a firmware thing. I can mention a dozen daft firmware fixable things wrong with the SL3. Plus hardware I despise.

I never said Leicas build justifys their price. Just that that's what they're focusing on as a brand. Exactly which camera is built better than the SL3 though? Leica and Olympus are the only manufacturers to put IP ratings on their cameras. Canikony don't. I've seen A7R5's fail in the field in not too extreme conditions. That's actually the only real competitor to the SL3, although I'd argue the SL3 is really trying to compete with the X2D, if you look at those cameras closely.

I actually own all the cameras I talk about so I'm comparing directly. The A7R5, A7CR and Sigma Rp (I don't own the Sigma) are the only bodies with this base silicon. None of those have proper weather sealing. And the SL manages to eek out a tiny bit more IQ from that sensor than the others do. I did the side by side testing. No camera with a faster readout sensor has the same DR. That's the small hit you take with an A1 or R5II or Z8. You do like the Leicas and that's because they're good to use. IQ, build and UI. That's it. The rest of your money went to the red dot.

The answer you don't want to hear is that Leica don't care about competing with Canikony. They're irrelevant. Leica is a low volume luxury brand selling cameras to those tha can afford them. It's a luxury good. Leica don't swim in the same kiddie pool as other camera brands. That's why they grew in the last 5 years while others died off. Leicas strategy is to be the Louis Vitton of cameras. That's why they axe the cheap lines like Summarit M lenses and CL cameras and have fixed price rises every year. That's why there's never enough stock. It keeps demand high. Leica is the Ferrari of car brands. Wildy expensive. Not that reliable. Long repair times. Not the fastest or the most practical. But very pretty and incredibly desirable. You think Ferrari care what Ford is doing? Or Tesla?

Your thinking of Leica as a tool. And it is. Just one made from unobtanium, hand polished for 100 hours by virgins and with a red dot stuck to it.

Gordon

[Cronilux]

@hdmesa I didn’t ask for tricks. I asked for a comparison between SL2-S vs SL3, since one couldn’t find a real and honest review only, cause too many fanboys out there are afraid of speaking the truth. 
 

Luckily a few in here did and some reputable dealers told me the same, that the SL3 is not a great improving to the SL2-S and that I should wait for the SL3-S. 

 

@FlashGordonPhotography I have to admit, your last comment made me laugh. 
 

And yes, I just saw a few of your comments and critiques about the SL3. So we are literally on the same page. I wouldn’t own that many Leica gear, if I wouldn’t enjoy it. Yet, I still can complain as I would with any Ferrari, Porsche or Lamborghini, if they mess up something so vital. 
 

Again, I am just disappointed the 3rd Generation of the SL is not that big of an improvement, that I would have expected. 

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, Cronilux said:

@hdmesa I didn’t ask for tricks. I asked for a comparison between SL2-S vs SL3, since one couldn’t find a real and honest review only, cause too many fanboys out there are afraid of speaking the truth. 

I found plenty of SL3 videos that called out the AF tracking as lacking. I have found searching directly in YouTube brings up much better review results than searching Google.

[SrMi]

34 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I found plenty of SL3 videos that called out the AF tracking as lacking. I have found searching directly in YouTube brings up much better review results than searching Google.

On the other hand, the quality of YT results is often inadequate. We should also differentiate between tracking and AF-C. X2D has face tracking but no AF-C.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

On the other hand, the quality of YT results is often inadequate. We should also differentiate between tracking and AF-C. X2D has face tracking but no AF-C.

Agreed, but it was enough for me to have realistic expectations of the SL3. Then again, I only did research recently. Those that tried to do research closer to launch may have not found as much, IDK. 
 

[RustyBug]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:15 PM, Cronilux said:

@SrMi I am not upset. All these answers are just off topic and not a single bit helpful. I don’t care how somebody likes a tool for their work. This thread is simply about technical specs and real life use of the tracking. I said numerous times, that I love my SL2-S in all other aspects. Thanks for not being helpful. 
 

As far as my informations go, the SL3-S should be released in the beginning of 2025 and its AF is said to be great. So let’s hope the best and wait for next year. I don’t think there will be firmware fix for the SL3 or that said update will change the AF performance a lot. 

Any "info" on the SL3-S ... expected release, MP, etc.

[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, RustyBug said:

Any "info" on the SL3-S ... expected release, MP, etc.

 

[Cronilux]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb RustyBug:

Any "info" on the SL3-S ... expected release, MP, etc.

No, not really. Release is most likely in January. Maybe mid January. 

Edited December 11, 2024 by Cronilux

[LD_50]

This is an interesting thread. I’ve been considering an SL3 or maybe an SL3-S. I have shot over the years a lot of Nikon gear, and now have a all Leica, a Leica M and have gone from SL to SL2-S.

I have had trouble finding examples of AFc and moving subjects with the SL3. It seemed much easier to find information on AF performance when the SL2 was introduced. I had hoped the inclusion of PDAF would dramatically improve the reliability of high speed AF shooting. 

The “move along if you don’t like it” feedback is interesting because Leica chooses to include AFc, face/eye tracking, and high frame rates and as an end user you are expected to accept that they just don’t work well. I can’t say how well they work with the SL3 but I can say it’s been difficult to find that information. Hasselblad chooses not to even include AFc and they don’t include a joystick for AF point selection so it’s very clear you aren’t to expect the camera to serve well in that way. It seems like a bad decision to include functionality that doesn’t work well, period. If the SL system is meant to be a AFs system, why include PDAF in the update? Why include face, eye and animal tracking? Why offer any high frame rate mode with AF if the system can’t keep up at those frame rates?

The Ferrari vs Ford comparison is poor (car analogies almost always are) because Ferrari provides performance that is competitive with cheaper non-high end brands in the sports car world. Compare Ferrari’s best sports car transmission to Ford’s and you won’t find that Ferrari is far behind, if at all. 

The SL and SL2-S I’ve owned are not reliable in high speed AF situations (continuous shooting with AFc with or without tracking) and that’s been disappointing. I’ve been using the system since the SL was introduced so I’m very familiar with it, have tried and tried to make it work, but have accepted it just isn’t reliable and competitive with other brands. 

I’ve recently looked at Sony, Nikon, and Canon because ultimately I want one system that can meet all my shooting needs (not including the M, which is a very different experience and use case). The Sonys are really challenging for me from a UI and handling perspective. I don’t think I can accept that. The Nikon Z8 handling is poor (too small, buttons poorly placed) and the Z9 would require accepting a much larger body. I do like the layout of the Z9 but the menus are a big step back from Leica. If the Z9 had a version II with higher res EVF I may go back to Nikon. I was surprised to really like the EVF on a Canon R5 mk II. I don’t care for the button layout and never really have but maybe I could get used to it. I considered an R1 but I have to accept the larger body and the handling challenges. The EVF is great but I’d be limiting to the 24 MP I’ve been using since buying an MP (typ 240). I’d like to move up to the 50+ range.

This all leads me back to the question at the heart of this thread: has Leica improved the SL3 significantly over the SL2 and/or SL2-S in terms of AFc and tracking? I really would like to stay with the SL system and I don’t want to use a separate “sports” camera from another brand. I do want Leica to stay the course on build and UI and haptics and IQ while also ensuring the features they are choosing to include (AFc, tracking, high frame rate) are reliable. They don’t have to be as good as the Sony A1 II and the Canon R1 but they’re currently far behind where I was with a Nikon D4 over a decade ago.

Leica’s SL system hits on so many of my requirements:

- handling, build, IQ, UI, lenses, weather sealing

I would love to see the AF be even middle of the road in comparison to the other brands. 

 

 

 

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[jaapv]

I get the impression that the Panasonic implementation is presently the most advanced in the L alliance. Try an S5Ii. Or S5iiX if you are into video. 

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, LD_50 said:

This all leads me back to the question at the heart of this thread: has Leica improved the SL3 significantly over the SL2 and/or SL2-S in terms of AFc and tracking? I really would like to stay with the SL system and I don’t want to use a separate “sports” camera from another brand. I do want Leica to stay the course on build and UI and haptics and IQ while also ensuring the features they are choosing to include (AFc, tracking, high frame rate) are reliable. They don’t have to be as good as the Sony A1 II and the Canon R1 but they’re currently far behind where I was with a Nikon D4 over a decade ago.

There is no Leica Sport Camera!

but from all your complaints, I'm not sure the perfect camera exists!