"Internal construction" - M2 vs. M3

[Dave.Ng]

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Hi everyone,

Background is, I have been using quite many M and screw mount film Leica cameras for quite a while, due to “GAS”.  Now I wanna settle down by just having one M film camera in my arsenal.

I am using an M2, which is fine for my needs.  However, I heard from a technician that the “internal construction” of the M2 is less superior than that of the M3, which may cause some issues during use.  This concerns me, and I kinda wanna let my M2 go to get an M3.  The lack of 35 mm frame line in the M3 is not an issue for me because I am a 50 mm shooter.

So, I would appreciate it if anyone here can help me confirm whether that statement is true or not.  And if it is true, what are the different points between the two (from the technical perspective of course)?

I have understood the differences regarding the frame lines, film counter, etc. that are displayed on the outside.

Apologies for the above question if it has been resolved somewhere here.  I’ve just joined the forum couple of minutes ago…

Thank you very much for your help!

[jakontil]

I know that M3 was probably overly built but i doubt if M2 is any less in quality.. i used M2-r myself not surr how they could differ in construction from M3 apart from those physical differences you already mentioned

[earleygallery]

They’re both very old and proven cameras now. Your M2 is still working fine? Doesn’t that speak for itself?

[UliWer]

The difference between the M3 and M2 is not only the framelines but the whole construction of the rangefinder. Leitz abandoned the original M3 rangefinder since the glass and/or the glue used for the prisms were prone to degeneration, so the viewfinder could get a yellowish tint. The construction of the M2 viewfinder is also more simple, though this does not mean that it is less reliable. 

For comparing the two models in other details one would have to define which version of the M3 one is talking about: double or single stroke, with glass or metal pressure plate for film, diameter of the viewfinder‘s eyepiece, sequel of shutter times etc. All variants of the M3 would have been enough for about five different versions of Barnack Leicas. 

Well, after all the viewfinder really makes the difference, and if 50mm is the lens of choice, I‘d always opt for an M3 with serial numbers above 1.000.000 (which is the last „version“). Though you should make sure that you look through the viewfinder before buying one: if it looks yellowish, stay away.

[Dave.Ng]

20 hours ago, earleygallery said:

They’re both very old and proven cameras now. Your M2 is still working fine? Doesn’t that speak for itself?

Yes it is indeed working very well, but that does not necessarily mean that it is more reliable (in terms of internal construction) than the M3.  They are both very good cameras, but the main point is I want to know more about the inside of each of them…

 

20 hours ago, UliWer said:

The difference between the M3 and M2 is not only the framelines but the whole construction of the rangefinder. Leitz abandoned the original M3 rangefinder since the glass and/or the glue used for the prisms were prone to degeneration, so the viewfinder could get a yellowish tint. The construction of the M2 viewfinder is also more simple, though this does not mean that it is less reliable. 

For comparing the two models in other details one would have to define which version of the M3 one is talking about: double or single stroke, with glass or metal pressure plate for film, diameter of the viewfinder‘s eyepiece, sequel of shutter times etc. All variants of the M3 would have been enough for about five different versions of Barnack Leicas. 

Well, after all the viewfinder really makes the difference, and if 50mm is the lens of choice, I‘d always opt for an M3 with serial numbers above 1.000.000 (which is the last „version“). Though you should make sure that you look through the viewfinder before buying one: if it looks yellowish, stay away.

Thank you very much.  I forget about the “various” versions of the M3 (and also the M2).  My M2 seems to be the latest one, with rewind lever and self-timer.

Could you please share a little bit about the reliability of different versions of the M3 (regarding internal construction)?  I will have a small talk with a Leica technician here in Vietnam soon, so I guess I will update you guys if I myself become aware of any useful insights…

[Biotar]

I have an early M2 from 1958 with CLA and a late M3 ss >1Mio from 1963 probably without service. The film transport and shutter release on the M3 seem to be of higher quality - I can feel the better inner workings in comparison.

That's why I couldn't give one away, because the M2 is simply the most beautiful.

[UliWer]

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb Dave.Ng:

Could you please share a little bit about the reliability of different versions of the M3 (regarding internal construction)?  I will have a small talk with a Leica technician here in Vietnam soon, so I guess I will update you guys if I myself become aware of any useful insights…

I don't think that you can tell much about the internal construction and any differences between models if you havn't taken both apart and looked at every detail side by side.

If someone says he can "feel" the difference I might say I can "hear" it: the sound of the M2 shutter is more metallic and a little bit louder than the M3. Though I am sure this difference is caused by the simpler and lighter top plate of the M2 which doesn't dampen the sound as well as "baroque" styled M3 top plate. Since the M2 for most part was built at the same time as the M3 I do not believe that they changed the mechanics of the newer camera as this would have added much more complication to the production process. Though I might be corrected by someone who looked painstakingly into the internal details. 

[earleygallery]

I’m not sure swapping a good working M2 for an unknown M3 is very wise.

Any older Leica could have various issues you won’t know about until you start using it.