M240 battery

[a.noctilux]

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As side note,

better use the batteries in place of keeping them unused.

As good habit, I numbered them to use them equally.

I wrote down clearly/visible (when inserted in the M) the coded date also, like two "charged/to be used" in front of me "1113VB" (made 11 years ago) and "4115VB".

...

Another "5116VB" is now inside M-D, I checked yesterday and the former battery inside showed "BC" when power-up.

Edited July 20, 2024 by a.noctilux

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[Datsch]

1316VB in my M-D was made in the 13th week of 2016, just a month before the build date of my camera.

Arriving today to join it is a brand "new" 14449 dated 0323VB so which has been sitting on a shelf somewhere for 18 months but that's still waaaay newer than my original one ...

I will be following the Leica guidance that came with it:

Fully charge and empty three times to get it to maximum capacity, and then I will store it long term:

• "Store in a partially charged condition" (ie not full or flat -- most internet sources say store at 50%)
• "For very long storage periods. charge for 15 minutes twice a year to prevent total discharge"

 

[Gregm61]

After seeing this I sourced a new battery to add to my round-robin set of batteries for my MP240 and M246, which with this newest unit now numbers five.

This new one will go into the lineup to charge/use as its number comes up. Hopefully gives me plenty of time until some third-party company finds a good reason to start filling to void. 

 

[fotomas]

got 3 new one now. There made in 2422, 0323 and 0623. All where totally empty when I bought them in a local Leica-store. They didn't even light up the LED of the camera. Never experienced that with other camera batteries.
After 2 hours of charge they charger showed the 80% indicator, but in the camera they only show 50 and 70 %. So I kept on charging till 80 % again and then they had 90 % in the camera. The newest I load up to 100%. Let's see what turned out to be the best treatment.
The old ones that came with the camera from 5112 still work, but I would say capacity dropped a bit.
Unfortunately one of the newer ones I bought in 2020 (0420) starts behaving strange. I couldn't start up the camera. When I turned the camera of about 1 hour before it was around 40 %. It then charged up to full rather quickly and I have the impression that it losses power also quicker then the rest now.
My first ones look different to the newer one. They where made in Korea and the new ones all in Indonesia.

[Mute-on]

I have been unable to find any new stock of the BP-SCL2 in Australia. What’s worse is I found stock in NZ but they do not ship batteries overseas. This exclusion seems commonplace.

Any local leads will be greatly appreciated. 

[pippy]

1 hour ago, Mute-on said:

I have been unable to find any new stock of the BP-SCL2 in Australia......Any local leads will be greatly appreciated. 

Is there an active 'Buy-and-Sell' internet marketplace in Melbourne? It might be worthwhile having a google to see if there are any batteries available in good condition on the used market.

When I discovered that these batteries were going to be discontinued just out of curiosity I had a look, that same afternoon, on the local forum and found one for sale at a price that was far too good to pass up (private seller) in my neighbourhood. I ordered it and it arrived - fully-charged(!) - by post on the following day.

Not the ideal solution, perhaps, and I really should pop into town to get a new one but it is certainly better than having no second battery whatsoever.

Good luck with the search!

Philip.

Edited July 24, 2024 by pippy

[bocaburger]

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4 hours ago, fotomas said:

got 3 new one now. There made in 2422, 0323 and 0623. All where totally empty when I bought them in a local Leica-store. They didn't even light up the LED of the camera. Never experienced that with other camera batteries.
After 2 hours of charge they charger showed the 80% indicator, but in the camera they only show 50 and 70 %. So I kept on charging till 80 % again and then they had 90 % in the camera. The newest I load up to 100%. 

My 3 "new" ones bought in May of this year were also completely flat out of the box (would not light the red LED or bring up a low-battery screen).  These are 2021-dated so have been sitting 3 yrs and no telling how long they were flat.  Fortunately (and somewhat surprisingly) they all charged to 100% in usual time.  I set a recurring reminder on my phone to check them every 6 months so we'll see in November how much charge (if any) they kept, and I'll pop them on the charger and try to catch and remove when it first shows the initial (80%) signal, as Li-Ion's are supposedly best stored at partial charge.  I confess I never did that with my other 4 from 2013 and touch wood they're still functioning well, but until recently I was not expecting Leica to abandon the M240 owners, as exemplary re-sale value retention was always a selling-point for Leica; not to mention that Leica has always considered the secondhand market as an entryway to the brand for new buyers...evidenced by their official "pre-owned-certified" programme.  

[colonel]

I live in the UK and there are loads of new batteries for sale by retailers. On top of that there are loads of second hand batteries for sale all over the place. I suspect that if it came to the point in the future that your battery dies, and it was both impossible for you to obtain another battery and for Leica themselves to obtain one, they would probably offer you a discount on a new camera. Leica have always done that when a previous model becomes unrepairable. I have always been a big fan of Leica customer support, albeit with the their long analogue repair times.

[fotomas]

My guess is that second hand batteries are not a way out. If my own ones becomes so old to fail the secondhand ones will do that too. And I don't want an M 10 or M 11. The M 240 is the concept that suits my needs best, the other digital Ms are another concept and that's not mine, beside that their prices have become ridiculous. For me the M 240 is the best digital M and the later ones have to many drawbacks for me. Would be nice to have a M 240 with the sensor of the M 10, but I guess we will never see this. So a discount wont help me either. But I can safe a lot of money if I switch to another brand anyway. If Leica has dropped the batteries to force me to buy a M 11 I won't do that, not even for the price of a M 240.

[colonel]

3 hours ago, fotomas said:

My guess is that second hand batteries are not a way out. If my own ones becomes so old to fail the secondhand ones will do that too. And I don't want an M 10 or M 11. The M 240 is the concept that suits my needs best, the other digital Ms are another concept and that's not mine, beside that their prices have become ridiculous. For me the M 240 is the best digital M and the later ones have to many drawbacks for me. Would be nice to have a M 240 with the sensor of the M 10, but I guess we will never see this. So a discount wont help me either. But I can safe a lot of money if I switch to another brand anyway. If Leica has dropped the batteries to force me to buy a M 11 I won't do that, not even for the price of a M 240.

Not sure I agree. Second hand batteries could be hardly used, as is most Leica equipment.

I mean, how often have you sold a camera with no battery ? I would guess never. 

So the used batteries are usually extra batteries that have been bought and used sparingly. 

I mean when has you 240 battery ever run out in a day? for me never

That is the advantage of a higher capacity battery. Few charging cycles ...

 

Edited July 25, 2024 by colonel

[fotomas]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb colonel:

I mean when has you 240 battery ever run out in a day? for me never

Happen to me several times. On an event I need about 1 1/2 - 2 batteries per day.

Anyway I would prefer to buy new ones, if I could choose.

[colonel]

Just on reflection, I am minded that I don't think there is a problem here

Sure batteries can die, and sure their capacity can be reduced over time, but lets look at the facts

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

Leica rate the BP-SCL2 at 500 photos. But that is including an assumption of review, if you don't review at all it would be higher then that. Many people here have reported over 600, even with some review.

In terms of cycles, Li-ion batteries used to be rated at 500 cycles but modern Li-ion batteries are more commonly thought of as being 800 cycles. However there is disagreement, with some estimates at 2000-3000 cycles, particularly if you take care of it (don't let it get too hot, keep between 20-40 and 80%, etc.)(at approx 4 volts - the BP-SCL2 has two 4v cells I think).

At the lower estimate, let us say 500x800 = 400,000

How many M240s will ever get to 400k shots ? 

so it seems to me, that it is valid to say that the battery will last the life of the camera.

On top of that, there are plenty of new batteries available (and I don't buy the "on the shelf" reduces life thing), and plenty of second hand ones, many of which are mildly used (most of them second or third batteries. Most Leica cameras are mildly used as well). In addition, Leica UK is advertising new batteries. So it is possible that either they have a substantial stock, or can order in small quantities which they constantly keep a small pool of. 

in summary. This topic doesn't really move the needle with me and my M-P.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2024 by colonel

[colonel]

11 minutes ago, fotomas said:

Happen to me several times. On an event I need about 1 1/2 - 2 batteries per day.

Anyway I would prefer to buy new ones, if I could choose.

yes, totally understand. I am not an event photographer, so slipped my mind!

[pippy]

3 hours ago, colonel said:

Just on reflection, I am minded that I don't think there is a problem here

Sure batteries can die, and sure their capacity can be reduced over time, but lets look at the facts

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

Leica rate the BP-SCL2 at 500 photos. But that is including an assumption of review, if you don't review at all it would be higher then that. Many people here have reported over 600, even with some review.

In terms of cycles, Li-ion batteries used to be rated at 500 cycles but modern Li-ion batteries are more commonly thought of as being 800 cycles. However there is disagreement, with some estimates at 2000-3000 cycles, particularly if you take care of it (don't let it get too hot, keep between 20-40 and 80%, etc.)(at approx 4 volts - the BP-SCL2 has two 4v cells I think).

At the lower estimate, let us say 500x800 = 400,000

How many M240s will ever get to 400k shots ? 

so it seems to me, that it is valid to say that the battery will last the life of the camera.

On top of that, there are plenty of new batteries available (and I don't buy the "on the shelf" reduces life thing), and plenty of second hand ones, many of which are mildly used (most of them second or third batteries. Most Leica cameras are mildly used as well). In addition, Leica UK is advertising new batteries. So it is possible that either they have a substantial stock, or can order in small quantities which they constantly keep a small pool of. 

in summary. This topic doesn't really move the needle with me and my M-P.

Thank you for having taken the time to  research and write up this assessment, Colonel. Interesting figures.

My only concern (for the time being!) was not having a spare at all so picking up a second battery was promoted to high priority just in case.

I picked up my M-D Typ-262 as NOS / Ex-Demo in December 2019 with 114 actuations and have only recently passed the 15,000 mark so hopefully there is much more life left in the original cell. The 'new' one which arrived the other day also seems to be NOS and is stamped as having been made in the 30th week 2019 so it is even newer than the one which came with the camera. I've been using the 'new' one so as to 'condition' it as per Leica's guidelines but as there is no screen it is going to take some time to drain the battery through three cycles...

Philip.

 

[colonel]

44 minutes ago, pippy said:

Thank you for having taken the time to  research and write up this assessment, Colonel. Interesting figures.

My only concern (for the time being!) was not having a spare at all so picking up a second battery was promoted to high priority just in case.

I picked up my M-D Typ-262 as NOS / Ex-Demo in December 2019 with 114 actuations and have only recently passed the 15,000 mark so hopefully there is much more life left in the original cell. The 'new' one which arrived the other day also seems to be NOS and is stamped as having been made in the 30th week 2019 so it is even newer than the one which came with the camera. I've been using the 'new' one so as to 'condition' it as per Leica's guidelines but as there is no screen it is going to take some time to drain the battery through three cycles...

Philip.

 

Lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries don't need to be primed or conditioned when new However, they do require routine care and maintenance to maintain their lifespan and effectiveness. Here are some tips for caring for Li-ion batteries: 

• Storage 

  Store batteries at temperatures between 41°F and 68°F (5°C and 20°C), away from direct sunlight and damp conditions. Before storing, charge or discharge the battery to around 50% of its capacity, and charge it again to around 50% at least once every six months. 
• Charging and discharging 

  Avoid fully discharging and charging the battery regularly, as smaller discharges can help the battery last longer and perform more cycles. For example, if you're using your phone, you can use software to remind you to unplug it when it reaches 80% charge. 
• Handling 

  Don't disassemble, crush, or puncture the battery. 
• Temperature 

  Extreme temperatures can shorten the battery's life

[Datsch]

I think 500 cycles is about right for life expectancy, but remember that is the number of cycles until the the battery only has a certain percentage of its capacity left. Perhaps about 70% let's say. SO an older battery will still tick along, just need recharging more often.  (The 2000 or 3000 cycle examples one sees I think are for EV batteries which have been built to last longer)

I know from experience that my Lithium Ion Makita batteries for my drills/saws etc which see a lot of use (my job) and are from 2012 run out of juice in no time these days.

I agree with @pippy it will take a while to run Leica's recommended 3 cycles full to empty with the new battery -- my M-D was getting 1000 shorts per charge last time I checked.

So 500 cycles woiuld be 500,000 shots -- that's even more than a knackered old Nikon D5 ex-press camera like you might find on mpb: https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/product/nikon-d5-dual-xqd/sku-2601205

However, that would take me over a hundred years ! I carefully compose and think about each shot ha ha

So we also have to think about age. Some internet sources say 2 to three years, some say ten. All say 20 years is exceptional.

So my original battery from 2016 is now 8 years old and getting a new (ish) spare seemed wise. SImple as that really.

[fotomas]

I never got close to 1000 shots with one battery. It's around 450 - 550 in my case.
Maybe because the batteries are not fresh anymore or is there a spread in quality? But it was like this as long as I remember.

[pippy]

48 minutes ago, Datsch said:

...my M-D was getting 1000 shorts per charge last time I checked.

...we also have to think about age. Some internet sources say 2 to three years, some say ten. All say 20 years is exceptional...

Due to certain particular circumstances (owning - in order - an M8.2; M9-P; M9; M Monochrom) I have ended up in the situation where I now have six batteries for the Monochrom. Of these one no longer takes a charge worth the name. Of the rest all seem to be roughly as good as any other. Of the ones normally in use (one in camera; two carried as spares) two date to 2011 and the other to 2013 so ten years seems to be rather a conservative estimate for life-expectancy.

I have only recently numbered each of the cells with a view to using them in rotation in the hope that such practice will aid longevity. Time will tell!

18 minutes ago, fotomas said:

I never got close to 1000 shots with one battery. It's around 450 - 550 in my case....Maybe because the batteries are not fresh anymore or is there a spread in quality? But it was like this as long as I remember.

If, fotomas, you are commenting on the '1000 shots' per charge mentioned by Datsch you should bear in mind that the camera in question is the M-D variant which, having no screen (etc), in comparison to the regular M240 series cameras (i.e. no possibility for reviewing images) tends to allow 'more shots per charge'. From what I've read circa 500 +/- does seem to be the norm for the M240.

On any particularly busy day with my own M-D I might capture a couple of hundred images and have never seen the charge-percentage drop below 70%. Due to my not previously having had a spare I have always been in the habit of ensuring that the battery was put on charge at 'stumps-up' so have not allowed this original battery to discharge which is probably not doing it any favours. Now that I do have a back-up I will try to run them down further before putting them on recharge.

Not sure if I'll ever be able to draw conclusions worth a mention but as Leica advise this approach it must be worth a try...

Philip.

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[colonel]

5 hours ago, fotomas said:

I never got close to 1000 shots with one battery. It's around 450 - 550 in my case.
Maybe because the batteries are not fresh anymore or is there a spread in quality? But it was like this as long as I remember.

Since Leica says 500 that’s sounds fine 

[fotomas]

In the past some user here claimed to easily reach 1000 exposures. Not sure they all had M-Ds, guess there where quite some M 240 also among them. So I wondered if there might be better batteries around somewhere. But I had to admit, that I check the exposure often after I had taken a picture and mostly prevent the camera from falling asleep while shooting a day long.