M240 battery

[pippy]

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48 minutes ago, Datsch said:

...my M-D was getting 1000 shorts per charge last time I checked.

...we also have to think about age. Some internet sources say 2 to three years, some say ten. All say 20 years is exceptional...

Due to certain particular circumstances (owning - in order - an M8.2; M9-P; M9; M Monochrom) I have ended up in the situation where I now have six batteries for the Monochrom. Of these one no longer takes a charge worth the name. Of the rest all seem to be roughly as good as any other. Of the ones normally in use (one in camera; two carried as spares) two date to 2011 and the other to 2013 so ten years seems to be rather a conservative estimate for life-expectancy.

I have only recently numbered each of the cells with a view to using them in rotation in the hope that such practice will aid longevity. Time will tell!

18 minutes ago, fotomas said:

I never got close to 1000 shots with one battery. It's around 450 - 550 in my case....Maybe because the batteries are not fresh anymore or is there a spread in quality? But it was like this as long as I remember.

If, fotomas, you are commenting on the '1000 shots' per charge mentioned by Datsch you should bear in mind that the camera in question is the M-D variant which, having no screen (etc), in comparison to the regular M240 series cameras (i.e. no possibility for reviewing images) tends to allow 'more shots per charge'. From what I've read circa 500 +/- does seem to be the norm for the M240.

On any particularly busy day with my own M-D I might capture a couple of hundred images and have never seen the charge-percentage drop below 70%. Due to my not previously having had a spare I have always been in the habit of ensuring that the battery was put on charge at 'stumps-up' so have not allowed this original battery to discharge which is probably not doing it any favours. Now that I do have a back-up I will try to run them down further before putting them on recharge.

Not sure if I'll ever be able to draw conclusions worth a mention but as Leica advise this approach it must be worth a try...

Philip.

[colonel]

5 hours ago, fotomas said:

I never got close to 1000 shots with one battery. It's around 450 - 550 in my case.
Maybe because the batteries are not fresh anymore or is there a spread in quality? But it was like this as long as I remember.

Since Leica says 500 that’s sounds fine 

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[fotomas]

In the past some user here claimed to easily reach 1000 exposures. Not sure they all had M-Ds, guess there where quite some M 240 also among them. So I wondered if there might be better batteries around somewhere. But I had to admit, that I check the exposure often after I had taken a picture and mostly prevent the camera from falling asleep while shooting a day long.

[Anbaric]

23 hours ago, colonel said:

so it seems to me, that it is valid to say that the battery will last the life of the camera.

In real world use, through ageing and charge cycles, batteries require replacement. This was true of my heavily used Fuji after about 5 years, where none of the originals are much use anymore. Fuji have discontinued the battery, but fortunately third party manufacturers make some decent alternatives. We've also seen this problem in the Leica world, where the DMR batteries were discontinued along with the module. In this case, there were never third party alternatives and owners have had to resort to getting their original batteries re-celled by specialist services. Perhaps this will be possible with the M240 and later batteries, perhaps not. I've seen it claimed that Leica use a chip in the battery to ensure that only authorised batteries can be used. Whether this would still work after replacing the cells is unclear (there are similar issues with refilled printer cartridges). This chip is presumably what has stopped third parties offering compatible batteries up to now, as well as the limited size of the Leica market.

If Leica are no longer going to supply batteries for their older models, I don't think offering a discount on a new and very expensive camera is an acceptable alternative when the original otherwise has plenty of life in it. Apart from everything else, that sends a terrible message in a world where we should all be trying to be more green. Perhaps legislators need to step in here, as they have done with things like standardising on USB-C for phone chargers in the EU. Maybe we need a limited range of industry standard battery form factors that future devices must be compatible with, with no mechanisms that prevent the use of third party batteries allowed. In return, battery manufacturers would have to comply with specific standards to sell their products for these devices, allowing room to innovate on things like cell capacity. We are used to having universal batteries (including rechargeables) in sizes like AA, with standard dimensions and voltages - why not for camera batteries?

Edited July 26 by Anbaric

[roydonian]

During a holiday in Paris earlier this year I discovered to my dismay that my power adaptor for European-type sockets would not mate correctly with the sockets in my hotel room, so I could not use my charger. I had brought my M-D and two fully-charged batteries which successfully powered the camera through my five-day trip. I took about 150 pics a day, and by the time I came home, the second battery still had about 20% charge. So that suggests that when used in my M-D, a fully-charged BP-SCL2 is good for about 400 pics.

If Leica is no longer offering the BP-SCL2 only four years after ending production of the last camera that uses it, could a Chinese battery manufacturer exploit the situation? While at first sight there might not be a strong business case for  cloning the BP-SCL2, a Chinese manufacturer could have a monopoly of the market for such a battery, so could price the product at a level that might make the project worthwhile. If that company got the reputation of having done a good job with the BP-SCL2, with its product on the shelf at Leica dealers worldwide and being reported in the international photo press, this might give it a useful degree of brand recognition as a supplier of reliable third-party batteries for other models of digital camera.

Since I'm in my early 80s, my M-D and its batteries will probably 'see me off the planet'. However, I used a Nikon DSLR in the days before I bought my M8.2, and still have it. A quick check on the internet shows that the type of battery used by this and around ten other models of Nikon camera is still available more than a decade after the last of cameras that used it ended production. Perhaps I ought to invest in a few more of these batteries in order to have a fallback solution should my M-D become unusable, or my elderly eyesight become unable to use a rangefinder.

[LeicaKyu2]

@roydonian I bought a used BP-SCL2 online from KEH. It arrived like new and has held a near perfect charge. Might be a decent solution for you too. 

[dirk24]

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I bought two M240 (Leica BP-SCL2 Lithium-Ion Battery Pack (7.4V, 1800 mAh)) within six months, one from a reputable photo store and one from a Leica store in Germany. Both were defective and would not charge or read 0V. Both were made in Indonesia, not South Korea, as my original ones. If you can find any on the web, make sure to charge and try right away and buy from a store with a 90-day money-back guarantee.

 

 

[Datsch]

I just checked the second hand ones for sale in the UK at mpb : https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/product/leica-m-battery-bp-scl2-14499

There are 8 there today. When you zoom in on the images, you can make out the serial numbers (and so the date of manufacture), and they range from 2012 to 2016.

Just FYI.

Edited July 27 by Datsch

[lct]

Just received this new BP-SCL2 battery.
Made by Varta so all hope is not lost.

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[laowai_]

On 7/19/2024 at 9:59 AM, Einst_Stein said:

I wonder if it is possible, or if anyone tried, to put the battery cells from other battery type into the used M240 battery package.

Certainly possible. Leica doesn't manufacture batteries they most certainly use some off the shelve battery cells and if these are standard size cells, replacements will be available on the open market.

The BP-SL2 battery pack is rated at 7.4 V so they are using two cells in series. You might need to get a spot welder and some Nickel bus bar strips to weld the battery pack back together. Might even get yourself a little cottage business going by refurbishing and maybe even upgrading spent BP-SL2 battery packs.

 

[pippy]

10 hours ago, lct said:

Just received this new BP-SCL2 battery.
Made by Varta so all hope is not lost.

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Yup.

I've just checked the two I now have and whilst the 2016 was made in Korea ("Leica Camera Korea" to be precise) and the 2019 was made in Indonesia ("MFG for Leica Camera AG" to be precise) they were both manufactured by Varta as their supplier and have the same SKU; VKB 56429 ('Varta Kamera Batterie?).

Has Varta decided that the profits paid to them by Leica no longer justify possibly quite small 'spare battery' production runs? Might they consider carrying-on production of these cells as an independent supplier which might lead to an increase in profits from sales of these items?

It's just like being half-way through reading a good Agatha Christie Murder Mystery; we simply don't know what's going to happen next! Will the next Victim be the M240???......😸......

Not nearly quite so much fun, though, truth be told.

Philip.

Edited July 27 by pippy

[Mute-on]

As a purely practical consideration, the sooner Leica officially discontinued these batteries the better. Then the aftermarket (likely exactly the same manufacturers, and a few others) will be free to supply unbranded versions.

If one takes the M8/M9 aftermarket batteries as an example, the aftermarket versions are around 1/6 the cost of the original Leica branded versions, very likely for exactly the same internal battery cells. I’d be very happy to pay $50 AUD for an M240 compatible battery rather than $300 AUD for a Leica branded version (if it became available locally by some small miracle).

Edited July 28 by Mute-on

[lct]

There is a Leica chip in Leica batteries AFAIK so the maker should have to find some agreement with Leica i suspect. The fact that it is a well known company, or a subsidiary of it, sounds encouraging though.

Edited July 28 by lct

[laowai_]

4 hours ago, pippy said:

Yup.

I've just checked the two I now have and whilst the 2016 was made in Korea ("Leica Camera Korea" to be precise) and the 2019 was made in Indonesia ("MFG for Leica Camera AG" to be precise) they were both manufactured by Varta as their supplier and have the same SKU; VKB 56429 ('Varta Kamera Batterie?).

Has Varta decided that the profits paid to them by Leica no longer justify possibly quite small 'spare battery' production runs? Might they consider carrying-on production of these cells as an independent supplier which might lead to an increase in profits from sales of these items?

It's just like being half-way through reading a good Agatha Christie Murder Mystery; we simply don't know what's going to happen next! Will the next Victim be the M240???......😸......

Not nearly quite so much fun, though, truth be told.

Philip.

 

Judging from the aerial view, PT Varta Microbattery Indonesia is a tiny operation as compared to CATL, BYD, SK Innovation, etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/PT.+Varta/@1.0644639,104.0275181,229m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m16!1m9!3m8!1s0x31d98e6011122075:0x177f7b256eaca24!2sPT.+Varta!8m2!3d1.06401!4d104.0276601!9m1!1b1!16s%2Fg%2F1pzq09_r_!3m5!1s0x31d98e6011122075:0x177f7b256eaca24!8m2!3d1.06401!4d104.0276601!16s%2Fg%2F1pzq09_r_!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu

Between 2002 and 2024 Varta went through a series of managerial and financial shakeups including a re-incarnation in 2017. I bet there are more battery cells in a single EV then the whole production run of the BP-SCL2. Sourcing these batteries must have been a huge nightmare for Leica and explain the high retail price of these rather ordinary batteries.

I bet the 'made in Korea' battery packs and the Indonesian 'MFG for Leica Camera AG' packs both use totally different cells.

Edited July 28 by laowai_

[laowai_]

52 minutes ago, lct said:

There is a Leica chip in Leica batteries AFAIK so the maker should have to find some agreement with Leica i suspect. The fact that it is a well known company, or a subsidiary of it, sounds encouraging though.

They  most certainly use an off the shelve BMS (battery management system) chip, and might do some custom programming. I bet the volumes are way to low to spin a custom BMS ASIC.

Every lithium ion battery pack has a BMS chip, you need a BMS to charge/discharge and load balance the battery cells in the battery pack. Bad things happen without a BMS. ST Micro, Analog Devices, Texas Instruments and many other IC firms make BMS chips.

[Lelmer]

I think it is a temporary shortage and can't believe such a great camera family would be left without battery supply in the future...

I have got 2 batteries from 2013 that I am using for about 10 years in alternance on my M, and their autonomy is still exceptional...definitely much longer than brand new M10 batteries 😉

I am not planning to buy new ones just in case.

[lct]

7 hours ago, laowai_ said:

They  most certainly use an off the shelve BMS (battery management system) chip, and might do some custom programming. I bet the volumes are way to low to spin a custom BMS ASIC.

Every lithium ion battery pack has a BMS chip, you need a BMS to charge/discharge and load balance the battery cells in the battery pack. Bad things happen without a BMS. ST Micro, Analog Devices, Texas Instruments and many other IC firms make BMS chips.

I have no idea. I just recall issues i had with replacement batteries on my M8.2. They had to be totally discharged in the camera to avoid false charging readings.

Edited July 28 by lct

[andybarton]

I’ve just called into Leica Manchester and they confirm ( to their surprise ) that M240 batteries are EOL. 

They are going to order a load for stock. 

They do have lots and lots of M8/9 batteries, which are NOT EOL. 

Apparently, Duracell make good M8/9 spares, so hopefully they will get on board with M240s when they know that Leica are letting us down. 

[Anbaric]

On 7/28/2024 at 1:40 AM, Mute-on said:

As a purely practical consideration, the sooner Leica officially discontinued these batteries the better. Then the aftermarket (likely exactly the same manufacturers, and a few others) will be free to supply unbranded versions.

Or nobody bothers, either because of the chip or the size of the market. This is really Leica's responsibility, and if the battery has been discontinued it would say a lot about them as a company. A battery isn't something like an obsolete sensor where there is no reasonable way for them to source a replacement. Any battery manufacturer could produce one if Leica made it worth their while. The M-E 240 was launched as recently as 2019 and sold until at least 2020. So now an essential consumable for a 4 year old camera might no longer be available? Let's hope this is a temporary situation, but if both Leica Store Manchester and Red Dot are seeing it as discontinued, the signs aren't hopeful.

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[Mute-on]

37 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Or nobody bothers, either because of the chip or the size of the market. This is really Leica's responsibility, and if the battery has been discontinued it would say a lot about them as a company. A battery isn't something like an obsolete sensor where there is no reasonable way for them to source a replacement. Any battery manufacturer could produce one if Leica made it worth their while. The M-E 240 was launched as recently as 2019 and sold until at least 2020. So now an essential consumable for a 4 year old camera might no longer be available? Let's hope this is a temporary situation, but if both Leica Store Manchester and Red Dot are seeing it as discontinued, the signs aren't hopeful.

Yes precisely. I hadn’t appreciated the importance of the BMS chip earlier. It is entirely Leica’s responsibility. Either ensure their own supply, or licence the BMS chip to a manufacturer who has a commercial incentive to take up production.

If Leica doesn’t facilitate either I would be extremely annoyed given the very material sum I spent to acquire an as new M262 as my first Leica digital M last year. I only hope Leica appreciates that for customers like me (who are heavily invested in Leica M film bodies and glass), they can either ensure loyalty by doing the right thing to support legacy products, or potentially lose a future customer of new digital products forever. Long term profitability requires some consideration of commercial integrity IMHO.