Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[BillCB]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I used to have a Phase One XF camera and half-a-dozen lenses, a Sony AR4 and several lenses and a couple of M's with even more lenses. Did I need them? Of course not, but I liked them all and don't for a moment regret having bought them.

But as I got older I began thinking of utility. A lot of the stuff was collecting dust. I used the XF primarily because of its unmatched image quality but boy, was it heavy! I used the M's for walking around and hardly touched the Sony. I decided to rationalize the equipment. The Sony gear went first - highly efficient but no emotional attachment. Selling the Phase gear was a much harder decision - I'd been using it for more than a decade.

 As I seldom make prints larger than one metre on the long side any more, I decided to see how the Leica images compared with the Phase in B2 prints. While the results were different colour-wise, the resolution difference was undetectable. There were a number of other factors in favour of Phase but the sheer portability of the Leica gear and the APO lenses won me over. I sold the Phase stuff and invested in the SL3 to accompany my M's.

Generally I'd say the Leica image quality is at least as good as the 150 mpx of the Phase with the sole exception of dynamic range - Phase has an extra stop in my opinion. But the Leica colours are arguably better and the IS saves tripod weight too.

I am fortunate not to have had any of the problems that have plagued the M's and SL3. And the lenses are simply the best I have used.

[ALScott]

On 7/20/2024 at 1:39 PM, JohnSantaF4 said:

I’m going to hold off an SL-3.

 

On 7/20/2024 at 4:10 PM, jaapv said:

+1. Too many MP, too expensive for what it is offering. 

Well that is great news, such a load off.  I can sleep now.  I am sure everyone else was breathlessly wondering.  Plus, Leica's have always been known as the best value option in cameras until the SL3.

[nameBrandon]

This conversation seems to have devolved into waxing poetic about Leica and need vs want... which is PERFECT. I need help. Please convince me one way or the other.

I shoot sports (ok, kids soccer) with a Canon R3 + 300 2.8 and R6ii and 70-200 2.8. I have a Sigma 50 1.4 Art and 135L for the random portrait and what-not.

I shoot my fine art (in reality, this is just what I call photos I print A2 / 17x22 sized from my vacation and trips) with my GFX 100s, 20-35 and Canon 40 2.8, and adapted Pentax 645 glass.

For video and random snapshots I do Fuji X and have a few cameras. 

My every day camera is an M11-P, with either the 35 Lux FLE II or the CV 50 2.2.

My SL3 arrives tomorrow.. undecided as to keep it or not, but if I did, I'd need to sell the GFX setup to do this. I'd probably pair it with the Sigma 14-24 or Panny 16-35/4. 

I've had an SL2-S and loved it, was a joy to use with M glass but it was such a brick I never took it anywhere, though it fell in to the general shooting category with my (at the time) M10-R. What I loved most about it was the IQ and the high iso performance.. definitely not going to get the same high iso performance with the SL3..

How many of you use the SL3 for landscape / "large" prints? Sounds like other than cropping, 100MP vs 60MP isn't a huge deal, and I get the benefit of a bit more DoF with the FF sensor vs crop MF.. though I expect the larger trade-off is the decrease in DR from the crop MF sensor...

Thoughts? What would you do if you were me? Keep the GFX setup and send back the SL3, or swap them out? 

Some "fine art" photos from the GFX setup that the SL3 would replace, for reference..! (First two, canon 40/2.8 pancake, last GF 20-35). 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Jim B]

1 hour ago, nameBrandon said:

This conversation seems to have devolved into waxing poetic about Leica and need vs want... which is PERFECT. I need help. Please convince me one way or the other.

I shoot sports (ok, kids soccer) with a Canon R3 + 300 2.8 and R6ii and 70-200 2.8. I have a Sigma 50 1.4 Art and 135L for the random portrait and what-not.

I shoot my fine art (in reality, this is just what I call photos I print A2 / 17x22 sized from my vacation and trips) with my GFX 100s, 20-35 and Canon 40 2.8, and adapted Pentax 645 glass.

For video and random snapshots I do Fuji X and have a few cameras. 

My every day camera is an M11-P, with either the 35 Lux FLE II or the CV 50 2.2.

My SL3 arrives tomorrow.. undecided as to keep it or not, but if I did, I'd need to sell the GFX setup to do this. I'd probably pair it with the Sigma 14-24 or Panny 16-35/4. 

I've had an SL2-S and loved it, was a joy to use with M glass but it was such a brick I never took it anywhere, though it fell in to the general shooting category with my (at the time) M10-R. What I loved most about it was the IQ and the high iso performance.. definitely not going to get the same high iso performance with the SL3..

How many of you use the SL3 for landscape / "large" prints? Sounds like other than cropping, 100MP vs 60MP isn't a huge deal, and I get the benefit of a bit more DoF with the FF sensor vs crop MF.. though I expect the larger trade-off is the decrease in DR from the crop MF sensor...

Thoughts? What would you do if you were me? Keep the GFX setup and send back the SL3, or swap them out? 

Some "fine art" photos from the GFX setup that the SL3 would replace, for reference..! (First two, canon 40/2.8 pancake, last GF 20-35). 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Having both systems myself, if I had to choose I would keep the SL 3 as long as I could also have the Apo lenses. The GFX system is what it is…it works and makes 102mp images, but they never thrill me. The images from the Leica APO SL lenses wow me every time, plus you can adapt the m lenses you already have. 

Probably sounds crazy, but I can’t stand the pixel/grain structure of the Fuji. Probably not relevant when printing. The colors arn’t accurate either, not like a Hasselblad anyhow.  Their interpretation of what they think are film simulations are ok for fun, but I like to start with the most realistic color science and then if I want it to look wacked I’ll do that myself…
However, I am concerned that you said you thought the Sl2s was a brick and so you never took it out. The Sl3 isn’t that much smaller or lighter. 

At this point, I’m keeping both systems but I did just trade my Hasselblad X1d system, 4 lenses, and the Sl2 so I can buy more Apo lenses.. I love using it, and that’s what it comes down to. You have to pick the system that makes you want to use it. That you enjoy using, and creating images that your are proud to say these are mine :~)

 

Edited August 1, 2024 by Jim B

[nameBrandon]

9 minutes ago, Jim B said:

Having both systems myself, if I had to choose I would keep the SL 3 as long as I could also have the Apo lenses. The GFX system is what it is…it works and makes 102mp images, but they never thrill me. The images from the Leica APO SL lenses wow me every time, plus you can adapt the m lenses you already have. 

Probably sounds crazy, but I can’t stand the pixel/grain structure of the Fuji. Probably not relevant when printing. The colors arn’t accurate either, not like a Hasselblad anyhow.  Their interpretation of what they think are film simulations are ok for fun, but I like to start with the most realistic color science and then if I want it to look wacked I’ll do that myself…
However, I am concerned that you said you thought the Sl2s was a brick and so you never took it out. The Sl3 isn’t that much smaller or lighter. 

At this point, I’m keeping both systems but I did just trade my Hasselblad X1d system, 4 lenses, and the Sl2 so I can buy more Apo lenses.. I love using it, and that’s what it comes down to. You have to pick the system that makes you want to use it. That you enjoy using, and creating images that your are proud to say these are mine :~)

Thanks for the feedback, very helpful! Would be a while before I could step up to APO lenses with the SL3. Tempted to crack open the box and put it's through it's paces but the moment I do that B&H has their 15% restocking fee, or I basically lose ~$750 selling it used. The brick comment was more around treating the SL2-S as a general purpose walk-around camera. In this case it'd be mainly for the same purpose as the GFX, which isn't tiny by any means, plus I'd get to use it with m lenses as you mentioned.

Grain structure hasn't bothered me much with Fuji, miles better than Canon or something else. It's fine on my M11-P, nothing I really focus on. 

More to ponder on.. Thanks for the input! 

[IkarusJohn]

55 minutes ago, nameBrandon said:

My SL3 arrives tomorrow.. undecided as to keep it or not, but if I did, I'd need to sell the GFX setup to do this. I'd probably pair it with the Sigma 14-24 or Panny 16-35/4. 

Not sure why you’d buy an SL3, but not get the APO lenses (and the 50 Summilux-SL) - they are the primary reason to get into the SL system, in my view.  That said, I realise that my M system is where I wish to be and have sold out of my SL lenses.  I’ve kept my SL(601) as a universal platform for my M lenses (particularly the 50 Noctilux) and for my APO Elmarit-R 180/2.8 and 2x converter.

For me, any system starts and finishes with the lenses.  The camera body comes second, and MP count last.

[Jim B]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

36 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not sure why you’d buy an SL3, but not get the APO lenses (and the 50 Summilux-SL) - they are the primary reason to get into the SL system, in my view.  That said, I realise that my M system is where I wish to be and have sold out of my SL lenses.  I’ve kept my SL(601) as a universal platform for my M lenses (particularly the 50 Noctilux) and for my APO Elmarit-R 180/2.8 and 2x converter.

For me, any system starts and finishes with the lenses.  The camera body comes second, and MP count last.

Well, I’m not getting the SL Summilux  as I would rather have the sigma 50 f1.2  The Lux is just too big and slow to focus. A lot of people find the price tag on the apo’s out of reach and then can’t justify the price versus the image quality difference.  I’m at the end of my game not the beginning, so I’m getting what makes me the happiest.

In reality, I’ve never had customers, art director, etc. complain about image quality, or would even know the difference if I used an Apo lens or not.  I shoot what makes me happy.  
I agree with you that it starts with the lenses! I’ve gotten some great prints even using M43 20mp with using Leica glass! 
I have the sl90 Apo and just love it and going to add the 75, 35 for now and the new sigma 500.

Edited August 1, 2024 by Jim B

[IkarusJohn]

I’ve had many 50s, and without doubt or reservation, the 50 Summilux-SL is hands down the best 50 I’ve had for image quality.  Yep, it’s big and heavy (depending on what you compare it to) and it’s not much good for sport or bird in flight or any other photography where fast AF is critical, but for most uses for a 50, I found the AF fine.  That said, I don’t really like AF …

To be honest, I should add that I shifted from the SL system to the X2D.

Edited August 1, 2024 by IkarusJohn

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, nameBrandon said:

This conversation seems to have devolved into waxing poetic about Leica and need vs want... which is PERFECT. I need help. Please convince me one way or the other.

I shoot sports (ok, kids soccer) with a Canon R3 + 300 2.8 and R6ii and 70-200 2.8. I have a Sigma 50 1.4 Art and 135L for the random portrait and what-not.

I shoot my fine art (in reality, this is just what I call photos I print A2 / 17x22 sized from my vacation and trips) with my GFX 100s, 20-35 and Canon 40 2.8, and adapted Pentax 645 glass.

For video and random snapshots I do Fuji X and have a few cameras. 

My every day camera is an M11-P, with either the 35 Lux FLE II or the CV 50 2.2.

My SL3 arrives tomorrow.. undecided as to keep it or not, but if I did, I'd need to sell the GFX setup to do this. I'd probably pair it with the Sigma 14-24 or Panny 16-35/4. 

I've had an SL2-S and loved it, was a joy to use with M glass but it was such a brick I never took it anywhere, though it fell in to the general shooting category with my (at the time) M10-R. What I loved most about it was the IQ and the high iso performance.. definitely not going to get the same high iso performance with the SL3..

How many of you use the SL3 for landscape / "large" prints? Sounds like other than cropping, 100MP vs 60MP isn't a huge deal, and I get the benefit of a bit more DoF with the FF sensor vs crop MF.. though I expect the larger trade-off is the decrease in DR from the crop MF sensor...

Thoughts? What would you do if you were me? Keep the GFX setup and send back the SL3, or swap them out? 

Some "fine art" photos from the GFX setup that the SL3 would replace, for reference..! (First two, canon 40/2.8 pancake, last GF 20-35). 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

1. You don't lose any DR over the SL2-S. The SL3 is as good in this area with more resolution. The files are extremely pliable. ISO performance is excellent. DXO sorts the rest anyway.

2. Apart from actual resolution, I'm not seeing much difference in the files. If I downsample a GFX file to 60MP they look about the same.

3. I prefer the Leica colours for landscape but neither are as good as the Hasselblad.

4. The difference in weight and size is small but to me, the SL3 feels noticeably better in hand. That's because the grip has moved toward the centre of weight so the balance has improved. I prefer the SL3 in hand over the GFX100S (and SL2).

5. The GFX system just makes better files in a sided by side comparison. No doubt. I print to B0 in house and the SL3 does that fine. But going up a size is what it is. But honestly, the lenses you cited except the 20-35 aren't getting everything from the 100MP sensor. I guess you're getting some bit depth advantages and moire isn't an issue but. not much actual extra data. The better SL lenses would be just fine and APO Summicrons would be possible better except your wide zoom. I have a full set of P645 lenses and they're lovely but don't keep up with modern glass for detail acquisition. Also, A2 is well inside what a 60MP sensor can fill. I think you'd struggle to see a difference at this size.

6. The GFX makes better files but the SL3 is more flexible and nimble. That's the real decision. If I worked out of a car I'd choose the GFX. But mostly it stays at home and I use the SL3.

7. The SL3 is easier and more engaging to use.

8. The 14-24 is fabulous. But do you use filters?

Currently on my way to Iceland. Packed my GFX for the trip but ultimately took the SL3 and the GFX is sitting in its bag at home. I have no doubt that the SL3 will perform. I'm not worried about the files at all. I can stitch for resolution. I brought the SL 16-35 instead of the 14-24 because of filters and the 100-400 because that's what I was missing on my last trip and ultimately why the GFX is at home. I have 16-400 in three lenses. Lovely.

Does the GFX make better files. Yes. Undoubtably. If you use the best glass and careful technique. Will the SL3 make fine art level work. Yes. Undoubtably. I can't say which you should go with. But for me the SL3 has mostly supplanted the GFX. Great files. Boring camera. Mind you I do have the Hasselblad X2D and may have snuck a body and a few primes in the bag next to the Leicas.

Gordon

 

[nameBrandon]

5 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

1. You don't lose any DR over the SL2-S. The SL3 is as good in this area with more resolution. The files are extremely pliable. ISO performance is excellent. DXO sorts the rest anyway.

2. Apart from actual resolution, I'm not seeing much difference in the files. If I downsample a GFX file to 60MP they look about the same.

3. I prefer the Leica colours for landscape but neither are as good as the Hasselblad.

4. The difference in weight and size is small but to me, the SL3 feels noticeably better in hand. That's because the grip has moved toward the centre of weight so the balance has improved. I prefer the SL3 in hand over the GFX100S (and SL2).

5. The GFX system just makes better files in a sided by side comparison. No doubt. I print to B0 in house and the SL3 does that fine. But going up a size is what it is. But honestly, the lenses you cited except the 20-35 aren't getting everything from the 100MP sensor. I guess you're getting some bit depth advantages and moire isn't an issue but. not much actual extra data. The better SL lenses would be just fine and APO Summicrons would be possible better except your wide zoom. I have a full set of P645 lenses and they're lovely but don't keep up with modern glass for detail acquisition. Also, A2 is well inside what a 60MP sensor can fill. I think you'd struggle to see a difference at this size.

6. The GFX makes better files but the SL3 is more flexible and nimble. That's the real decision. If I worked out of a car I'd choose the GFX. But mostly it stays at home and I use the SL3.

7. The SL3 is easier and more engaging to use.

8. The 14-24 is fabulous. But do you use filters?

Currently on my way to Iceland. Packed my GFX for the trip but ultimately took the SL3 and the GFX is sitting in its bag at home. I have no doubt that the SL3 will perform. I'm not worried about the files at all. I can stitch for resolution. I brought the SL 16-35 instead of the 14-24 because of filters and the 100-400 because that's what I was missing on my last trip and ultimately why the GFX is at home. I have 16-400 in three lenses. Lovely.

Does the GFX make better files. Yes. Undoubtably. If you use the best glass and careful technique. Will the SL3 make fine art level work. Yes. Undoubtably. I can't say which you should go with. But for me the SL3 has mostly supplanted the GFX. Great files. Boring camera. Mind you I do have the Hasselblad X2D and may have snuck a body and a few primes in the bag next to the Leicas.

Gordon

 

Thanks Gordon! Enjoy Iceland! I loved it last time I was there.. would probably move there if they'd have me.

Yes, I do use filters, good point on the 14-24..  That does say quite a bit to me that you left the GFX at home... though bringing the X2D, I'd have probably done the same...

I did have an X2D when it first launched, along with the 35-75 / 55V / 45P / 80 1.9 / 30 3.5. Great system, probably the only one that has rivaled GFX for me and I do agree, the color was amazing, better than the GFX. The lack of adaptability bothered me, not being able to enjoy/use vintage glass (e-shutter vs mechanical on GFX), so I ultimately parted ways with it but it was an amazing camera for sure.

Maybe I'll risk the depreciation / stocking fee and open the SL3, rent an APO SL lens and see what all the fuss is about before making a call. 

[Photoworks]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:52 PM, nameBrandon said:

What I loved most about it was the IQ and the high iso performance.. definitely not going to get the same high iso performance with the SL3..

I suppose you have not been following the comparisons of Sl2s and SL3. They have similar noise levels.

is one camera better than others? it is subjective to your taste and preferences. otherwise just gas.

[JTLeica]

On 8/1/2024 at 2:52 AM, nameBrandon said:

This conversation seems to have devolved into waxing poetic about Leica and need vs want... which is PERFECT. I need help. Please convince me one way or the other.

I shoot sports (ok, kids soccer) with a Canon R3 + 300 2.8 and R6ii and 70-200 2.8. I have a Sigma 50 1.4 Art and 135L for the random portrait and what-not.

I shoot my fine art (in reality, this is just what I call photos I print A2 / 17x22 sized from my vacation and trips) with my GFX 100s, 20-35 and Canon 40 2.8, and adapted Pentax 645 glass.

For video and random snapshots I do Fuji X and have a few cameras. 

My every day camera is an M11-P, with either the 35 Lux FLE II or the CV 50 2.2.

My SL3 arrives tomorrow.. undecided as to keep it or not, but if I did, I'd need to sell the GFX setup to do this. I'd probably pair it with the Sigma 14-24 or Panny 16-35/4. 

I've had an SL2-S and loved it, was a joy to use with M glass but it was such a brick I never took it anywhere, though it fell in to the general shooting category with my (at the time) M10-R. What I loved most about it was the IQ and the high iso performance.. definitely not going to get the same high iso performance with the SL3..

How many of you use the SL3 for landscape / "large" prints? Sounds like other than cropping, 100MP vs 60MP isn't a huge deal, and I get the benefit of a bit more DoF with the FF sensor vs crop MF.. though I expect the larger trade-off is the decrease in DR from the crop MF sensor...

Thoughts? What would you do if you were me? Keep the GFX setup and send back the SL3, or swap them out? 

Some "fine art" photos from the GFX setup that the SL3 would replace, for reference..! (First two, canon 40/2.8 pancake, last GF 20-35). 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Just for clarity, you will get as good if not better high ISO than your M10 R, better than the SL2 with significantly more malleable files and better Dynamic Range than both.

The APO lenses are better than any GFX lens that I ever used. Significantly so. Almost optical perfection.

[jonoslack]

On 8/1/2024 at 12:49 PM, nameBrandon said:

Maybe I'll risk the depreciation / stocking fee and open the SL3, rent an APO SL lens and see what all the fuss is about before making a call. 

I can't really help you with comparisons (don't have the GFX). but with respect to the APO SL lenses - you can pick them up secondhand for quite reasonable prices (even from dealers). . . . or at least you could a month or two back. Certainly worth a look

[Jeff S]

10 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I can't really help you with comparisons (don't have the GFX). but with respect to the APO SL lenses - you can pick them up secondhand for quite reasonable prices (even from dealers). . . . or at least you could a month or two back. Certainly worth a look

SL APO lens rental about a couple hundred bucks for a week in the US.

Jeff

[JohnSantaF4]

On 7/22/2024 at 9:31 PM, ALScott said:

 

Well that is great news, such a load off.  I can sleep now.  I am sure everyone else was breathlessly wondering.  Plus, Leica's have always been known as the best value option in cameras until the SL3.

You’re welcome. Al.

[Genoweffa]

re main topic...since so many tangents had developed over 17 pages..

1.new product launch date was established btw engineering and accounting...with accounting having an upper hand

2.new product went out with known and unknown deficiencies

3.new clients noted those deficiencies...ie. in case of the unknown deficiencies, providing a free qc service to a manufacturer of a product

4.engineering tells accounting...see, I told you so...we were too early with the release

5.accounting tells engineering...ok..ok... fix it...but...with a minimum extra cost since it will bite into the coming financial quarter ...and so on...and on..

 

folks...it like this every time and everywhere...manufacturing or construction

 

[kiwidad]

38 minutes ago, Genoweffa said:

re main topic...since so many tangents had developed over 17 pages..

1.new product launch date was established btw engineering and accounting...with accounting having an upper hand

2.new product went out with known and unknown deficiencies

3.new clients noted those deficiencies...ie. in case of the unknown deficiencies, providing a free qc service to a manufacturer of a product

4.engineering tells accounting...see, I told you so...we were too early with the release

5.accounting tells engineering...ok..ok... fix it...but...with a minimum extra cost since it will bite into the coming financial quarter ...and so on...and on..

 

folks...it like this every time and everywhere...manufacturing or construction

 

I think you are on the money. if not why do we ever need firmware updates. A product is tested to a point and out it goes. can testing cover every single process and such etc etc.. I doubt it. but hey at least Leica are responsive.

Along the way someone debated need and frankly I have never purchased anything based purely on need. I took pictures with my Fuji well liked by friend and family and the few clients I have shot for and I didnt need to switch to Leica. I did and acquired a q2 and M10 which quickly became just an M11. I don't need the resolution! I can't focus any quicker but I do like the menus. I played with the SL2 andS variant in a store earlier in the yea and found them to be fun (and heavy) so I might jump back into the AF fray and get an SL3. There are times I dont find the M11 fun as I am not the greatest at focussing (grandkids soccer) so a SL3 would be fun. Isn't it just fun to pick up a tool and experience the features and functions it provides and use them reproduce a memory! 

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Genoweffa said:

re main topic...since so many tangents had developed over 17 pages..

1.new product launch date was established btw engineering and accounting...with accounting having an upper hand

2.new product went out with known and unknown deficiencies

3.new clients noted those deficiencies...ie. in case of the unknown deficiencies, providing a free qc service to a manufacturer of a product

4.engineering tells accounting...see, I told you so...we were too early with the release

5.accounting tells engineering...ok..ok... fix it...but...with a minimum extra cost since it will bite into the coming financial quarter ...and so on...and on..

 

folks...it like this every time and everywhere...manufacturing or construction

 

Any complex product has "known and unknown deficiencies". It's not limited to Leica, or to the photo industry. Some issues are never revealed in testing, because testers can never try every possible scenario. Witness the Q3 firmware update: the same issue was present in the Q3, which came-out a full year before the SL3. The Q3 is Leica's runaway best-seller, and yet no one noticed the bug.

What can manufacturers do? Should they postpone new products by months or years to make sure that they are "ready?" It wouldn't help. End-users will always find creative ways to break a system. The best you can do is to fix these issues as they are discovered.

[Indeepthought]

I think you have to remember Leica are a Premium brand. Years ago when Volvo had issues with their engines, they had mobile units that would change the customers  engine overnight for a modified unit..

Leica should be more receptive to customers issues and sorting them…

🍻

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[SrMi]

The least I expect from Leica is to send someone to my home to clean the sensor and lenses and include a free massage! 

😜