Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[Olaf_ZG]

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3 hours ago, SrMi said:

If you are not in AI, there is a limit to how much companies can offer without passing the cost to the consumers.

Well, being one of most - at least perceived - camera brands, one would assume they have some funds. Especially when they seem to have enough IT power to develop apps.

It is a matter of choices and allocation of funds.

@Mikko Kankainensolved it by adding the grip. If this is a solution, Leica should add it to the package, even if it cost them.

Loosing images is the worst what can happen to a photographer. We can all say here that one would never plug out a computer when running etc, but the SL3 is not fail proof.

I feel for those who lost their images, and their clients. This is a heavy cost Leica is passing to our customers right now!

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

That will work if the file allocation table on the card is up-to date. It sounds like that's not the case, meaning that the image data is on the card, but the allocation table hasn't been updated, so the camera overwrites the files. I'm speculating, of course, but I've seen similar bugs before.

I'm sure it IS properly updated, as you can very easily browse through the images on the card before removing the battery - even hundreds of images are possible - they can all be seen through the play function - I don't think this would not be the case if the file allocation table wasn't updated. More than that, why postulate two problems (the file counter AND the Fat table) when one will do (the file counter) - if I was them I would simply be trying the fix first - without trying to examine anything more fundamental. 

. . .  and I have also seen similar issues before as a developer - I'm not saying you're wrong - just that that is not what it feels like, 

 

Edited July 8, 2024 by jonoslack

[BernardC]

55 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

. . .  and I have also seen similar issues before as a developer - I'm not saying you're wrong - just that that is not what it feels like, 

No worries, we are all guessing. I think the FAT is cached, but never flushed to disk, which would explain why the camera doesn't see the files after a (forced) re-start. I don't know embedded systems well (I did a project in QNX years ago, nothing before or since), but multi-level caching issues are familiar to me, so my mind goes in that direction.

[Ko.Fe.]

On 7/5/2024 at 10:39 PM, ALScott said:

It's generally not advisable to take a battery out of anything battery powered while it's on is it?  A flashlight maybe, but some of mine are so technically advanced now I wouldn't do it with them.  After I wrote my post above I really thought about all the Canon's I had over the years.  I was making a living with them and if they quit I bought a new one.  I didn't have time for a fix and repair shops weren't around the corner for me.  I definitely didn't have the money working at newspapers to just run out and buy new bodies but I had to.  Those bodies were comparatively cheap and I didn't, nor anyone I worked with, expect them to last 10, 20 or 30 years with hard use.  I sure didn't expect to sell them for thousands 20, 30 or 40 years after I bought them because they were still highly sought after.  

 

Last time I checked Canon's Canada ambassadors profiles, many were still using DSLRs.

One real pro in Toronto I know, is using 5D2.

Which is EOS for sometime (end of support), but major components are available and handy folks are changing shutters at home's desk (via DIY YT instructional videos).

My daughter purchased 5D2 with worn out paint and second shutter, used it as pro and after quitting, I got it. I'm not in the rush to sell it. It works, it has special rendering, which is recognized by photo community.   

Do they cost the fortune? It is impossible. The quantity they were produced was in mass production numbers. Not a boutique counts   

But we never know how price is going to hold. M4-2, for example, made in not significant quantities, it has real plates, not a cheap zinc. Yet, no cigar. And so is SL. Most beautiful and well made camera with EVF, but price has dropped significantly. 

I must buy it. Since I already have 5D2 and M4-2. Every time I think of SL, I want to buy it. Beautiful camera and will lasts for 10 years more for sure. 

In fact, most of the digital cameras I have, had didn't really quit on me.   

Hard use... I don't think many are buying from LCAG for it by now. Not only due to high price tag, but due to service completely not matching Canikons. 

I get your strategy from the past. But Canon Canada, for example has not just a service where I could send my camera, lens for free estimate, get it done within few days and get is fixed within same week. All via web. No calls, no emails. Just a service web site with my profile and updates on the progress, automatic approvals and so on. Does LCAG has anything like this? And it is not for pro, but just for anyone with any camera. 

Edited July 8, 2024 by Ko.Fe.

[JiriS]

From this thread it appears there are many fellow software engineers here 🙂. Perhaps Leica could open source parts of their firmware (except for their colour processing pipeline) and let the passionate community help them out via gitlab pull requests. 

[algrove]

As regards Leica QC, I seems perhaps their current work ethics, as reported by a member here who visited the actual working areas lately, are contributing too much toward a relaxed attitude, which to me seemed very un-German. How can they be "working at full speed" to solve the issue when staffing in work areas is from what I recall being said was at about the 40% level.

For most years of my life, buying German made products was buying quality. Today-very disappointing to see what's happening, especially with the prices ever climbing.
 

[algrove]

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Further to my other post above.

An interesting point about past photographers who made the Leica brand synonymous with great images, etc, etc, BUT those photographers used pre-digital Leicas. Glad I own a few.

Leica always brings in their past successes when explaining how great they are. I think the term now is how great they "were" when comparing film cameras with their modern digital cameras. Don't get me wrong I own and use M11x2, M11Mx2, SL2S, SL3 and Q3. I also own other digital brands and so far none have had issues like Leica has been going through and now continues to go through.

My M9's worked wonderfully and I naively assumed the next variations would be just as trouble free, but as years progressed it seems Leica has not kept pace with software electronics. My first disappointment was when the M246 could not reveal a RAW DNG preview like its predecessor the M9M could do, but they pontificated how it could shoot video. I buy an M for photography, not video. Sure it took perhaps 30 seconds, but viewing a RAW on the M9M LCD was fabulous technology. Then came the M246 which could not preview a RAW DNG, like the M9M had been doing. 

Like someone said Leica should change their beta testers too who let this fault slip right on by. Using the same old people has now cost them when pros advise other pros and anyone considering the purchase of an SL3, not to currently buy an SL3 until this issue is truly resolved.

Maybe Leica should cancel holidays and get these engineers back to work on resolving the issue NOW instead of sometime in the future when they feel like working on it in earnest with a nice suntan, while those who indirectly paid for their vacations continue to suffer under inferior software engineering design.
 

[Virob]

I'm probably not fully following the discussions of @BernardC and @jonoslack, but, if the issues is a loss of communication between the camera and what is on the card during a forced shutdown, ie, removing the battery without shutting down first, or the camera freezes and the only way to get it unstuck is to reset by pulling that battery, if after reinserting the battery and starting up the camera, you were to hit the play button and review the last images, could that theoretically be enough to rebuild the communication and prevent overwriting of images?

Edited July 8, 2024 by Virob

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, algrove said:

Further to my other post above.

An interesting point about past photographers who made the Leica brand synonymous with great images, etc, etc, BUT those photographers used pre-digital Leicas. Glad I own a few.

Leica always brings in their past successes when explaining how great they are. I think the term now is how great they "were" when comparing film cameras with their modern digital cameras. Don't get me wrong I own and use M11x2, M11Mx2, SL2S, SL3 and Q3. I also own other digital brands and so far none have had issues like Leica has been going through and now continues to go through.

My M9's worked wonderfully and I naively assumed the next variations would be just as trouble free, but as years progressed it seems Leica has not kept pace with software electronics. My first disappointment was when the M246 could not reveal a RAW DNG preview like its predecessor the M9M could do, but they pontificated how it could shoot video. I buy an M for photography, not video. Sure it took perhaps 30 seconds, but viewing a RAW on the M9M LCD was fabulous technology. Then came the M246 which could not preview a RAW DNG, like the M9M had been doing. 

Like someone said Leica should change their beta testers too who let this fault slip right on by. Using the same old people has now cost them when pros advise other pros and anyone considering the purchase of an SL3, not to currently buy an SL3 until this issue is truly resolved.

Maybe Leica should cancel holidays and get these engineers back to work on resolving the issue NOW instead of sometime in the future when they feel like working on it in earnest with a nice suntan, while those who indirectly paid for their vacations continue to suffer under inferior software engineering design.
 

In Europe an employer cannot cancel holidays…

[Planetwide]

The most reliable M & L mount camera is the SL2 😀

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Planetwide said:

The most reliable M & L mount camera is the SL2 😀

Is that opinion based on reading the forum?😜

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Can we add an option to have the power button JUST be a power button? I can disable sleep timer but not sleep via the power button. If I could turn that function off I would. I actually don’t want the power button to have a sleep function.

Gordon

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Can we add an option to have the power button JUST be a power button? I can disable sleep timer but not sleep via the power button. If I could turn that function off I would. I actually don’t want the power button to have a sleep function.

Gordon

I use the sleep button on the X2D all the time but never on SL3, maybe because it is on the "wrong" side or maybe because X2D does not have EVF extended mode (with X2D, LCD is always active).

Even when the power button is just the power button, we must be able to differentiate whether the camera is asleep (timer) or turned off.

Edited July 9, 2024 by SrMi

[jonoslack]

7 hours ago, algrove said:

Like someone said Leica should change their beta testers too who let this fault slip right on by. Using the same old people has now cost them when pros advise other pros and anyone considering the purchase of an SL3, not to currently buy an SL3 until this issue is truly resolved.

.
 

Not defending myself here, but Leica DO change their beta testers often, these days there are a lot of us, mostly professional and mostly very good. It’s very well organised and most things do get picked up. much much more professional than in the old days of the m9. 

This one is particularly invidious because you would only notice if you shoot a lot of images after pulling the battery and switching on again. You only have to switch off again and all is back to normal. 

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Not defending myself here, but Leica DO change their beta testers often, these days there are a lot of us, mostly professional and mostly very good. It’s very well organised and most things do get picked up. much much more professional than in the old days of the m9. 

This one is particularly invidious because you would only notice if you shoot a lot of images after pulling the battery and switching on again. You only have to switch off again and all is back to normal. 

I don’t think this particular battery test - shot long burst of photos, wait a minute or two for the camera to write files on the card, remove the battery - should be the responsibility of field testers, it should be part of a core package of testing suites designed to catch these critical issues at a very early stage, usually before the camera is ready for beta

[jaapv]

Hinterher ist man immer schlau…

In English: Hindsight is twenty-twenty. 

[jonoslack]

13 hours ago, BernardC said:

No worries, we are all guessing. I think the FAT is cached, but never flushed to disk, which would explain why the camera doesn't see the files after a (forced) re-start. I don't know embedded systems well (I did a project in QNX years ago, nothing before or since), but multi-level caching issues are familiar to me, so my mind goes in that direction.

An interesting observation, for instance, 

switch camera on at 50000

shoot 20 shots - to 50020 battery runs out

pull battery, put in fresh battery, switch on

shoot 5 shots - will overwrite 50000 to 50005

Switch camera off

Switch camera on

Camera will then continue from 50021

This is what suggests to me that the FAT table is written - but the counter is not, however the counter IS updated every time the camera is switched off.

What do you think?

 

[jonoslack]

50 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I don’t think this particular battery test - shot long burst of photos, wait a minute or two for the camera to write files on the card, remove the battery - should be the responsibility of field testers, it should be part of a core package of testing suites designed to catch these critical issues at a very early stage, usually before the camera is ready for beta

Well, that's not really how it is likely to occur - every time it's happened to me it has been when the 'battery empty' message comes up, which perhaps isn't core package. Whatever I'm not excusing Leica for missing it - or the beta testers come to that because I think we should have found it earlier (as far as I understand it was a beta tester who first described - just not before the release).

best

Jono

[Carrot]

So Leica knew of the issue prior to officially releasing the camera?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jonoslack]

31 minutes ago, Carrot said:

So Leica knew of the issue prior to officially releasing the camera?

No they didn't (as far as I'm aware)  - it was reported later