Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[Simone_DF]

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4 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

 

5.  With complex systems there will never be enough time to test to the point that no errors remain. (See 1.)

There will always be bugs, but this is a pretty big one. How is it possible that Leica QA missed it? M11 and Q3 freezes are also big, noticeable issues. While, in general, all your points are valid, 3 broken cameras in a row is quite a high number, a sign that the problem lies in the process. Either bad coders, lack of proper QA, or most likely a combo of both things.

[JiriS]

If Leica is struggling with a proper fix, quick temporary workaround could be to make the power button function like a binary on/off switch. Remove the sleep mode altogether and make a single quick press of the button turn the camera on/off. It would simplify the overall operation anyway (das wesentliche). They could even keep it that way if they can figure out how to make this operation faster. 

Edited July 6, 2024 by JiriS

[Samir Jahjah]

38 minutes ago, JiriS said:

If Leica is struggling with a proper fix, quick temporary workaround could be to make the power button function like a binary on/off switch. Remove the sleep mode altogether and make a single quick press of the button turn the camera on/off. It would simplify the overall operation anyway (das wesentliche). They could even keep it that way if they can figure out how to make this operation faster. 

+1

[SrMi]

42 minutes ago, JiriS said:

If Leica is struggling with a proper fix, quick temporary workaround could be to make the power button function like a binary on/off switch. Remove the sleep mode altogether and make a single quick press of the button turn the camera on/off. It would simplify the overall operation anyway (das wesentliche). They could even keep it that way if they can figure out how to make this operation faster. 

A better fix would be to pulsate the power button ring with white (green pulsating light means charging, white constant light means it is on).

[jonoslack]

A Better fix  still would be a simple routine:

having generated a file Number;

1. check the card(s) to see if it exists

2. then if it does exist increment the number

3. try again

3. loop

not really rocket science  and much quicker than handling what happens if the battery is pulled when the power is on

 

[ERSY Photography]

I like the idea of a pulsing button in sleep mode! I hope Leica will see the idea and add it in the new firmware

[Markey]

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17 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is a matter of what issues and how solved - some are forgivable, some less so. 

For instance:

M8 IR and waterfall banding - forgivable teething troubles - rapidly solved 

M8 sudden death syndrome - batch of substandard parts can happen to anybody - rapidly solved

M9 - Corrosion saga - Kodak was part of it and it got more or less resolved in the end - if Leica had struck a deal with one or more repair services in the end it would have been forgivable

M 240 heat freeze - in my recall (I was one of the first to suffer) solved quite promptly with a refinement after longer time.

M11 - took far too long 

SL3  - too late to acknowledge given the severity and too slowly resolved - if ever. 

I have a feeling that Leica is sailing close to the wind  in an attempt to keep up with the technology tsunami from East Asia and not quite succeeding. The glacial repair service is not helping either...😉

I think you may be on to something with your comment about Leica trying to keep up with the East Asian competition.

They may have been over ambitious with these new iterations and failed to see the risks.

They are a long way from home as regards the companies early raison d'être

Edited July 7, 2024 by Markey

[Stef63]

14 hours ago, jonoslack said:

A Better fix  still would be a simple routine:

having generated a file Number;

1. check the card(s) to see if it exists

2. then if it does exist increment the number

3. try again

3. loop

not really rocket science  and much quicker than handling what happens if the battery is pulled when the power is on

 

I would suggest inserting an additional step between steps 2 and 3: if the file number exists and the camera is in a debug mode, write all memory states and program debug logs to a file on the card. This could facilitate providing developers with feedback from devices that are actively used in various real-world settings.

Sophisticated and complex hardware and software devices typically have some sort of logging functionality. For example, when a car exhibits unusual behavior, a mechanic does not test drive a similar model to see if it exhibits the same issues; instead, they connect the affected car to a computer to download the log files. This is a standard practice for many devices that rely on intricate interactions between hardware and software components, evident even in appliances like dishwashers. By enabling a debug mode that records all relevant internal information into log files, Leica could empower end-users experiencing rare or intermittent bugs to provide meaningful feedback, just as mechanics diagnose cars.

Edited July 7, 2024 by Stef63

[Kim Dahl]

Everything is certainly true that it is difficult. But what do other camera factories and electronics factories do? They must face the same challenges. Although there are also problems with Sony-Nikon-Canon, I don't think there are that many. Otherwise, they manage to solve them before it gives as bad a reputation as Leica has gradually acquired. Even among Leica's most loyal supporters. I think it's really becoming a huge problem. We must remember that today Leica makes a lot of money - even in this day and age. Maybe they should upgrade the customer service, otherwise the customers could  disappear.

[Manicouagan1]

Building software is hard, testing software is harder.  Finding all the hidden issues relating to an atypical sequence of operations (removing the battery while the camera is still on) is almost impossible.  Once a piece of software or firmware is deployed to a wide range of users all sorts of things will be discovered, general quite quickly.  Experienced organizations selling complex hardware and software normally a prepared to prepare and test a point release quickly (a week or two).   If the customers using the product can't depend on the product and can't get defect resolved quickly, there are no excuses, the customers will find a product they can depend on.  

[Shashinka]

I have an M11 that regularly freezes now with recent firmware compared to before, and my SL3 overwrites images as I shoot.  If Leica are listening, this is 100% unacceptable.  Now I have two expensive investments I have little to no confidence in.

[jaapv]

On 7/6/2024 at 9:29 PM, Simone_DF said:

There will always be bugs, but this is a pretty big one. How is it possible that Leica QA missed it? M11 and Q3 freezes are also big, noticeable issues. While, in general, all your points are valid, 3 broken cameras in a row is quite a high number, a sign that the problem lies in the process. Either bad coders, lack of proper QA, or most likely a combo of both things.

I doubt that Leica's coders are incompetent, Leica tends to hire and train the best, but I think that the basic problem is dual: they basically lack the number of developers compared to the industry's giants, who also have other corporate divisions including  military. And the basic mindset at Leica tends to be traditional , so cutting-edge developments may not get all the attention they need to function flawlessly. 

[jrp]

But this seems to be a fairly basic issue: how does the camera maintain its state when power can be pulled at any time. 
 

Sony seems to maintain a database of pics on a card so that the counting algorithm is not needed to restore state.  But there are obviously alternatives, otherwise the camera would not be able to remember your settings, eg. 

[Eesand]

I haven't experienced this so far; I avoid by having already done the things they suggest- perhaps the cache process is messed up.  In any case, another issue which needs fixing is that the camera electronic shutter is speced to reach 1/16000th of a second, I haven't gotten it past 1/8000th.  A stop is a lot!

[Jim B]

My SL3 has been working great and is a joy to use! Just finished a big shoot and no problems whatsoever. I’m on firmware 1.1.0, lens 3.0, SCL 6 battery, Angel Bird cf express b https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09RWW247J?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Honestly, never pulled out a battery on any computerized electronic device while it was working, or shut the camera off before the files were written….

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[jrp]

Have you taken the battery out while your camera was asleep?  How did you know it was (not) asleep?

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, jaapv said:

I doubt that Leica's coders are incompetent, Leica tends to hire and train the best, but I think that the basic problem is dual: they basically lack the number of developers compared to the industry's giants, who also have other corporate divisions including  military. And the basic mindset at Leica tends to be traditional , so cutting-edge developments may not get all the attention they need to function flawlessly. 

As a customer, I want results, not excuses, especially at Leica’s price point and “luxury” experience.
Not enough Devs on the team? Not my problem. I reckon Leica had a few very profitable years. Hire more people. 

[jaapv]

Err, in Western Europe the problem is not hire more people (Leica has been trying to for quite a while now), but  find more people.
All businesses. If you need somebody to paint your house: "we'll put you on the waiting list for next year". If you need a car repair at your dealer: "We might have a mechanic free next month" Bus drivers? they are depending on retired drivers hiring themselves out. And so on...🥵 Plenty of vans on the street with "I'm looking for a colleague" plastered all over them.

[Simone_DF]

6 hours ago, Jim B said:

Honestly, never pulled out a battery on any computerized electronic device while it was working, or shut the camera off before the files were written….

Fair enough, but if we follow your line of thought, we shouldn’t have speeding cameras, alcohol control, etc.  

People are humans, we do things we are not supposed to do all the time. That’s why there’s countermeasures in place, one that Leica didn’t think of implementing, or probably implemented, but very badly. 
That said, I always removed the battery with the camera on on the SL2-S and any other camera 🙈

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[Simone_DF]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Err, in Western Europe the problem is not hire more people (Leica has been trying to for quite a while now), but  find more people.
All businesses. If you need somebody to paint your house: "we'll put you on the waiting list for next year". If you need a car repair at your dealer: "We might have a mechanic free next month" And so on...🥵

Not really, at least not for IT jobs.