Buying used M11 (tips for check)

[SudaliuS]

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Hello everyone!
My name is Aleksandr. I'm a new one here.
During the couple of days I want to buy used Leica M11 camera. This will be my first M-system camera.
According seller pictures it's in perfect conditions and used a little bit more than 1 year.
This is good, but I'm affraid there is something could be wrong with camera inside.

Could you please give some advices and tips how to check M11 camera before the purchase? May be some important functions or moments?

WIll be really appreciate for your help
Thank you

[Malabito]

I would only buy from a store with a guarantee and ask them what the situation would be like if your camera started to suffer from the freezes, (can you return it, do you get the money back, etc, etc...).

Sadly, most sellers will not be honest about the freeze issues, therefore buying from a particular is of risk and from a store as well unless they have very clear SLAs.

Also its going to be very hard to test if the camera is freezing.... so you would need to trust the seller, which i woudnt. 

 

[SudaliuS]

2 minutes ago, Malabito said:

Also its going to be very hard to test if the camera is freezing.... so you would need to trust the seller, which i woudnt. 

 

Thank you so much for your reccomendations. I will think about it

[DadDadDaddyo]

Hello --

Buying a used M-series camera body is a good way to go, but within limits that you have to find and set for yourself. 

For me, this has meant that when I buy used gear, almost without exception, it is from a dealer who handles used gear as part of their business - not as an afterthought, but as a core channel they base their reputation on. 

So, again, for me (it may be different for others, or for you) this means confining myself to one of the medium-to-giant-sized outfits who do business online. (If I lived in big city (like New York or Tokyo) I'd be a denizen of the well-known photo dealers, scouring their Used departments, where I could actually handle something before buying.)

The idea is to buy from a place with a return policy of useful length, 30 days, for example, or who offers a multi-month warranty specifically on used gear. 

I've had very good fortune buying "Open Box" items from the big dealers like Adorama and B&H, and "Used" from established used gear dealers like KEH and Roberts Camera (in Indianapolis, I believe - they do business on eBay as UsedPhotoPro - I've had very good experiences with them). By the way, it's dealers who can truthfully offer "Open Box", which means something that was purchased, then returned. A private seller who would offer "Open Box" is inherently suspect in my eyes. They mean "Used" except that maybe they have the box. Calling that "Open Box" may prove to be disingenuous. This is exactly why working with the professional outfits is the way to go. 

Similarly, when I sell, it's almost always to a place that exists to deal in used gear, such as KEH. You take a hit in terms of what they offer, but they aren't going to come back at you with spurious or obviously fraudulent complaints about something you've sold them (as has happened to me on a few occasions involving private sales online, where policies generally exist to protect buyers over sellers).

In a nutshell, when buying used, buy from someone you know, or from a well-established dealer who offers reasonable and realistic policies designed not just to reassure buyers, but also who offer genuine measures for correction when something goes wrong. 

Look for realism, not one-in-a-lifetime bargains. 

Edited July 2, 2024 by DadDadDaddyo
small typo

[SudaliuS]

The current situation that I have now is to make a choose between two used cameras: M10-R for €4200 and M11 for €5500.

M10-R still has two months warranty from a dealer and M11 warranty already expired. But M11 newer on the market and has more new features, including sensor 

[RexGig0]

Welcome to the forum! 🙂 By posting this in the M11 section, you may miss receiving useful replies from Leica shooters who have tried the M11, and then reverted to the M10-series.

Because I have not used either the M10-R or the M11, I cannot speak from experience, but, the M11’s new sensor has little appeal, to me, because I still use some wonderful DSLR cameras, for macro/nature/“citizen scientist” photography. A photographer who uses only the M system could have a greater need for a more-versatile system. (My wife is quite dedicated to the Nikon brand, and, some of our most important photography is “action macro” of macro and other wee beasties, in their environment so, I will not quit the Nikon system, and I also continue to use some of the Canon equipment I used for forensic/evidentiary photography, while employed in public service.)

One obvious reason to opt for the M11 is that the newer Visoflex only operates at its highest-resolution potential on the M11. This newest Visoflex will work, on an M10-series camera, but not at its highest resolution.

[lct]

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Welcome to the forum. If you have no experience with M cameras i would try one in person to begin with. You might love it or hate it depending on your tastes and skills. As for which M camera, the M11 is the more modern body in that it allows for shooting well in both RF (rangefinder) and LV (live view) modes with all M-mount lenses including early symmetrical ones thanks to its BSI sensor. As for buying an M11 second hand, i would say no if you cannot try it in person, let alone if you don't buy it to a dealer offering a trusty warranty. Happy snaps 🙂

Edited July 2, 2024 by lct

[charlesphoto99]

Best way to get a good used M11: make sure it's labeled M10-R on the front!  😉

[MikeW]

2 hours ago, SudaliuS said:

The current situation that I have now is to make a choose between two used cameras: M10-R for €4200 and M11 for €5500.

M10-R still has two months warranty from a dealer and M11 warranty already expired. But M11 newer on the market and has more new features, including sensor 

With only two months left, you might as well consider them both out of warranty. The M10-R is a fine camera; some folks have moved back to it from the M11 due to problems they were experiencing with the M11. I'd certainly consider picking up an M10 or M10-R as a primary or second body, but I ran into a deal on an M11-P that I could not say no to. I'm weak, perhaps.

I'm delighted with my M11-P and have not experienced the problems reported by some M11 users. I knew that buying used meant assuming some risk, but I trusted in the seller, got what I consider to be a great price, and was willing to take that risk for the cost savings. Your tolerance may not be the same as mine.

With the M11, you get a newer camera, more pixels, metering off the sensor for the first time in a digital M, internal storage, USB charging and image retrieval. But, in the end,  the principal functions of the M10-R and M11 remain the same. Just be sure you are getting a good deal from a source you trust.

[SudaliuS]

15 minutes ago, MikeW said:

With only two months left, you might as well consider them both out of warranty.

Yes, you are right. 2 months is almost nothing, this is not a reason for buying. Just need to define for myself: is this all new features of M11 are costs €1300 or not.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, SudaliuS said:

Yes, you are right. 2 months is almost nothing, this is not a reason for buying. Just need to define for myself: is this all new features of M11 are costs €1300 or not.

Depends if you need/want those features. Only you can know. A guy like me would buy an M10 in no way, another guy or gale could probably hate the M11.

[crons]

My first M was bought used. A lot of people go that way because it's cheaper. That was the first camera I ever bought used. 

I only owned it for about a month. I discovered it had a faulty sensor. 

That was the last time I bought anything camera related used. From then on I always bought brand new. I sold that M10P and bought an M10R. 

My M10P suffered from that line at low ISO. It was not a dead pixel mapping issue. Leica said it needed a new sensor board. I sold the camera and didn't look back. 

I would tell you to check for sensor issues but that's no longer an issue with Leica M's except on rare occasions. 

I'm afraid a lot of people who sold their M11 did because they quickly found they were unreliable and were frustrated. So I would be afraid to purchase a used M11 in mint condition unless it was from a eeputable source. I would buy from an authorized Leica dealer only. Use it a lot and the first sign of trouble I would return it. I would only buy it with some sort of return policy. 

I bought my M10R just as the M11 was announced. I did the right thing. I don't like one thing about the M11. I would never trade my M10R. 

If my M10R one day died beyond repair and the store gave me a discount to get a new one I would choose to go to a film M. Probably an M-A and be done with electronics. 

Edited July 2, 2024 by crons

[crons]

22 minutes ago, SudaliuS said:

Yes, you are right. 2 months is almost nothing, this is not a reason for buying. Just need to define for myself: is this all new features of M11 are costs €1300 or not.

The thing with the Leica M is that it was never supposed to be a Sony or a Fuji. The Leica M is better with LESS features and not more. 

[SudaliuS]

Well, anyway two months of warranty - it means I have for some weeks more for check the camera like I want. And in some cases I can bring it back to the store during those two months.
From the other side (M11) I can't do this. Because it's out of warranty and the seller just can say that this is not his problem at all. Even if I find some issue in the same day

Edited July 2, 2024 by SudaliuS

[crons]

13 minutes ago, SudaliuS said:

Well, anyway two months of warranty - it means I have for some weeks more for check the camera like I want. And in some cases I can bring it back to the store during those two months.
From the other side (M11) I can't do this. Because it's out of warranty and the seller just can say that this is not his problem at all. Even if I find some issue in the same day

I'm biased but my vote is the M10R. It's been 3 years of perfection for me. Of course I am the first owner since I bought it brand new sealed in the box from an authorized dealer. 

I wouldn't buy either if I didn't trust the seller or if it's from eBay. 

I would encourage people to buy up the M10R brand new when you could still find them brand new before they went away. That's a special camera. 

Edited July 2, 2024 by crons

[Fred B]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Best way to get a good used M11: make sure it's labeled M10-R on the front!  😉

...on the TOP, not on the front. Ask somebody owning such a machine.

[MikeW]

2 hours ago, crons said:

My first M was bought used. A lot of people go that way because it's cheaper.

I'm afraid a lot of people who sold their M11 did because they quickly found they were unreliable and were frustrated.

I'm not ever going to downplay how many have had issues with their M11s, but the number of M11s on the used market is probably not indicative of the number of M11 owners that have had issues. Neither of us knows for sure, but as there are also mint/barely used M10s on the used market, I figure I'm on safe ground in assuming this.

It is likely that digital Ms in mint / barely used condition show up for sale less so because of reported problems but for other reasons, including no small percentage being bought first by those with no experience using a manual-focus rangefinder camera. It isn't for everyone.

Allowing the first owner to take the biggest depreciation hit is not a bad strategy with any camera, as long as one is willing to take on some risk.

I wonder how many buyers of used M11's are on the forum? It would be good to hear from them. 

I'm super happy with my used mint M11-P, which I bought at a considerable discount from new and as the sale was private, also skipped having to pay for sales tax. Do I feel like I won the lottery in that my camera is issue-free? No, I rather expected that outcome, despite having been aware of and prepared for the reported issues. I can't honestly say I'd have been any less happy with a M10-R though, and had the right offer shown up when I was ready to buy, I may have gone that route.

OP, you are going to enjoy whatever you buy.

[DadDadDaddyo]

My M10M, M11, M11M: all came from Adorama, offered as "Open Box". All carried the same return policy. None of the cameras went back. 

The M11 appeared in the first big wave of tempest of concerns expressed. I hazard a guess that its first buyer didn't want to take a chance. Adorama, in turn, was willing (probably after at least a perfunctory check over) to offer it back out as "Open Box", with the reassurance that the return policy offered. On those terms I was willing to take the chance, believing also that Leica was working the issue as well.

The M11 is still with me, and performing beautifully. I've never tried to "check" or "force" it into a freeze. I've only used it "normally", figuring that normal use was what I was interested in, rather than in seeking to become a crusading user striving to catch Leica with their pants down. 

All three bodies continue to perform beautifully. 

[kiwidad]

On 7/2/2024 at 5:56 AM, SudaliuS said:

Hello everyone!
My name is Aleksandr. I'm a new one here.
During the couple of days I want to buy used Leica M11 camera. This will be my first M-system camera.
According seller pictures it's in perfect conditions and used a little bit more than 1 year.
This is good, but I'm affraid there is something could be wrong with camera inside.

Could you please give some advices and tips how to check M11 camera before the purchase? May be some important functions or moments?

WIll be really appreciate for your help
Thank you

with all electronic products its always a crapshoot.

I bought myQ2 M10 and M11 at different times used from individuals. 

If it works in your hand it might not work in 5 minutes I dont see theM11 any different. if you read the forums there seems to be a perception that M11 are largely flawed but I dont see enough evidence to believe that. If you buy from a store you can likely purchase a warranty which is always a good thing regardless of product, you just have to weigh the benefits of it against savings of private sale! I seems to recal leica warranties are not transferable in some countries also!

Good luck and enjoy the M11 , its a great camera!

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[ianforber]

On 7/2/2024 at 7:21 PM, SudaliuS said:

Well, anyway two months of warranty - it means I have for some weeks more for check the camera like I want. And in some cases I can bring it back to the store during those two months.
From the other side (M11) I can't do this. Because it's out of warranty and the seller just can say that this is not his problem at all. Even if I find some issue in the same day

You may have decided already. I have the M11 and I have had no problems and love it. It is my first M camera although I was familiar with rangefinders before buying it. That said, in your position I’d probably go for the M10-R and spend the rest on a nice lens. You’ll lose virtually no money on either should you decide to sell.