M4-P Black Lines Showing up on Scans and Negatives

[jonfernandez]

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Hi everyone,

Recently purchased my first M body (M4-P) and noticed these black lines showing up on my scans, especially in photos that have clear skies. The lines appear in the same spot (top left of frame). I noticed it on my first few rolls shooting on a sunny day in Coney Island where I was shooting 1/500 and 1/1000 most of the day. I figured it could have been a scanner/developer issue.So on my next batch I went to a different lab and same issues. Then I took a few test photos and found out the lines are noticeable at 1/500 and 1/1000 shutter speeds. But at 1/250th it disappears (these were dev/scanned by a third different lab so definitely not a mistake on their end). The two photos I attached were from my test and these are both shot at f/11 1/1000th. I have other samples at 1/500th where the line appears less noticeably. If it is helpful I could share those as well. 

The store that I bought it from said the camera was CLA'd by DAG. I plan on going back to the store today to see how they can help me. But before that I just wanted to ask everyone on here if they had experience with this issue before? Would love to give them as much info as possible to resolve it! 

I appreciate it in advance. 

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[69xchange]

Debris on curtains or failing/loose threads on curtains. I would recommend opening up the back door and remove front cap/lens when there is no film loaded then put it in bulb mode. Next you fire and hold the shutter button and visually inspect both ends of the curtains. Also try using a blower to the curtains if you see/suspect any loose debris. 

[AndreasG]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb 69xchange:

Debris on curtains or failing/loose threads on curtains

This was my first idea too, but in such case I expect the dark lines to be straight and parallel to the upper edge.

[250swb]

The lines are curious given they don't seem to be exactly parallel to an edge, unless the film hasn't been loaded properly or a tilted frame has been adjusted during scanning. Either way a dark line on negative film implies less exposure so loose fibres is a good place to start. The lines you can see in the photos are from near the bottom and middle of the film gate (image projected upside down and back to front) so maybe make a photo containing only the sky and see if they appear anywhere else.

[TeleElmar135mm]

Perpaps the pressure plate (Andruckplatte). Open the camera and inspect if theres is something on this plate or are there any damages.

[hansvons]

21 hours ago, jonfernandez said:

the lines are noticeable at 1/500 and 1/1000 shutter speeds. But at 1/250th it disappears (these were dev/scanned by a third different lab so definitely not a mistake on their end).

I've seen many interesting issues, most of them quickly solved—this is quite a riddle. Well-conducted research!

3 hours ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

Perpaps the pressure plate (Andruckplatte). Open the camera and inspect if theres is something on this plate or are there any damages.

No. The pressing plate isn't correlated with exposure speeds. The problem, however, is which points to the shutter. 

4 hours ago, 250swb said:

The lines are curious given they don't seem to be exactly parallel to an edge, unless the film hasn't been loaded properly or a tilted frame has been adjusted during scanning. Either way a dark line on negative film implies less exposure so loose fibres is a good place to start.

Yes. I'd look for hairs/fibres connected to the shutter cloths that trail with the cloth. But you already looked at the shutter in bulb mode, I guess. 

 

[Mute-on]

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This is exposure related, as suggested by the changing results at lower shutter speeds. Most odd, but could be pinholes in the curtains or, more likely, a shutter adjustment issue. 

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Mute-on said:

This is exposure related, as suggested by the changing results at lower shutter speeds. Most odd, but could be pinholes in the curtains or, more likely, a shutter adjustment issue. 

Pinholes would show as white streaks on negative film (more exposure) and the M shutter goes from side to side, not up and down.

[jonfernandez]

9 hours ago, 69xchange said:

Debris on curtains or failing/loose threads on curtains. I would recommend opening up the back door and remove front cap/lens when there is no film loaded then put it in bulb mode. Next you fire and hold the shutter button and visually inspect both ends of the curtains. Also try using a blower to the curtains if you see/suspect any loose debris. 

This was my thought as well. After photographing the samples I shared and getting them back from the lab, I decided to use a blower, but could not see any visible debris. The store I bought it from shipped it to the company who did the CLA for them and they are covering all costs for me, which I appreciate since I purchased just a few weeks ago. I'm hoping it is a simple and quick fix! 
 

7 hours ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

Perpaps the pressure plate (Andruckplatte). Open the camera and inspect if theres is something on this plate or are there any damages.

Thankfully, I think, the plate was not damaged and looked normal! 

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. When I get more information in the coming weeks, I will post an update. 

[davidmknoble]

@jonfernandez, I have seen similar issues with my black and white film after traveling and x-rays.

You indicated you have tried other test rolls.  Have they by chance been the same film, maybe purchased at the same store, stored together in the same place?

I would recommend getting a fresh roll of black and white (as it’s shelf life is better anyway) and shooting things around the house, including sky like you did in your examples.  Then get that film developed.

It is possible you have a bad batch of film that was no well stored before you got it, or had too much x-ray.

When I was in Antarctica this January I took film, and had no choice but to put it through 2 x-ray machines (out of 6 total going and coming home).  I put them back in the plastic containers with a big “A” on the cap and I’ll shoot it at home, but not travel again with it. The images I took came out fine, but I am sure another x-ray would likely cause problems.

Just a thought.

[jonfernandez]

On 7/7/2024 at 7:23 AM, davidmknoble said:

@jonfernandez, I have seen similar issues with my black and white film after traveling and x-rays.

You indicated you have tried other test rolls.  Have they by chance been the same film, maybe purchased at the same store, stored together in the same place?

I would recommend getting a fresh roll of black and white (as it’s shelf life is better anyway) and shooting things around the house, including sky like you did in your examples.  Then get that film developed.

It is possible you have a bad batch of film that was no well stored before you got it, or had too much x-ray.

When I was in Antarctica this January I took film, and had no choice but to put it through 2 x-ray machines (out of 6 total going and coming home).  I put them back in the plastic containers with a big “A” on the cap and I’ll shoot it at home, but not travel again with it. The images I took came out fine, but I am sure another x-ray would likely cause problems.

Just a thought.

This is a good point. I buy all of my film mainly from the same store and the rolls I had shot were bought in the same batch and stored the same way. The camera is with the store's repair person now but in general, I will keep this in mind for any future problems! Thanks! 

[jonfernandez]

Update: Got an email from the store that the camera has been repaired and is being sent back!

From my contact at the store: "It appears that the leading edge of the shutter needed cleaning. A very rare issue."

I appreciate everyone's responses on this post! I am glad it was a fixable issue and it was just a cleaning. Will be getting the camera back on Monday and can't wait. After shooting with an M-body, I find it difficult to enjoy using my other older SLR's!