PhotoCruiser Posted April 10 Share #241 Posted April 10 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just for adding another choice of brand Same color charts are available from Datacolor and they work with their Spyder calibrating/profiling device. https://www.datacolor.com/spyder/products/spyder-checkr/ Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 10 Posted April 10 Hi PhotoCruiser, Take a look here Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LeicaGuyUK Posted April 10 Share #242 Posted April 10 52 minutes ago, PhotoCruiser said: Just for adding another choice of brand Same color charts are available from Datacolor and they work with their Spyder calibrating/profiling device. https://www.datacolor.com/spyder/products/spyder-checkr/ Chris Ah i have one of those that came with a spyder kit but i`ve never used it. Didn`t realise people made profiles for their cameras with it, i assumed it was only for studio/single session use only... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaGuyUK Posted April 10 Share #243 Posted April 10 16 hours ago, jaapv said: https://calibrite.com/photo-target/ https://calibrite.com/product-category/targets/ thanks for that, how would i go about making a profile for my m11, I have tried to get a custom made profile appear in lightroom but they just wont appear in the list under the profiles section... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 10 Share #244 Posted April 10 The software saves the profile in correct folder automatically. It is all explained on the Calibrite website. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoCruiser Posted April 10 Share #245 Posted April 10 vor 9 Minuten schrieb LeicaGuyUK: Ah i have one of those that came with a spyder kit but i`ve never used it. Didn`t realise people made profiles for their cameras with it, i assumed it was only for studio/single session use only... As you have it already, study the manual you can find under the link i posted and do some tests to see if you like the results what does not necessary has to be pleasant and probably does not reflect the Leica look. Correcting the colours should lead to a perfect color and for some pro's thats a baseline to start editing. i used the Calibrite monitor profiler for many years but switched now to the Datacolor Spyder again as i dislike the Calibrite Software, however thats personal taste. When i ordered the Spyder i got also the White Balance Cube, but not the color charts as i don't mind about that for my use. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoCruiser Posted April 10 Share #246 Posted April 10 vor 2 Minuten schrieb jaapv: The software saves the profile in correct folder automatically. It is all explained on the Calibrite website. As far i understood he has a Spyder from Datacolor, so he should check the Datacolor website. Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 10 Share #247 Posted April 10 Advertisement (gone after registration) 12 minutes ago, PhotoCruiser said: As you have it already, study the manual you can find under the link i posted and do some tests to see if you like the results what does not necessary has to be pleasant and probably does not reflect the Leica look. Correcting the colours should lead to a perfect color and for some pro's thats a baseline to start editing. i used the Calibrite monitor profiler for many years but switched now to the Datacolor Spyder again as i dislike the Calibrite Software, however thats personal taste. When i ordered the Spyder i got also the White Balance Cube, but not the color charts as i don't mind about that for my use. Chris My Spyder was not recognized any more after my latest OS update so I switched back to using my iDisplay Pro. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaGuyUK Posted April 10 Share #248 Posted April 10 16 minutes ago, jaapv said: The software saves the profile in correct folder automatically. It is all explained on the Calibrite website. 18 minutes ago, jaapv said: The software saves the profile in correct folder automatically. It is all explained on the Calibrite website. I`ll have a look, this wasn`t working for me after going through the datacolor process. Thanks for confirming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaGuyUK Posted April 10 Share #249 Posted April 10 17 minutes ago, PhotoCruiser said: As you have it already, study the manual you can find under the link i posted and do some tests to see if you like the results what does not necessary has to be pleasant and probably does not reflect the Leica look. Correcting the colours should lead to a perfect color and for some pro's thats a baseline to start editing. i used the Calibrite monitor profiler for many years but switched now to the Datacolor Spyder again as i dislike the Calibrite Software, however thats personal taste. When i ordered the Spyder i got also the White Balance Cube, but not the color charts as i don't mind about that for my use. Chris Yes but for me it`s the last part of the process that isnt working, even though the right files are created in the right path they do not appear in lightroom classic. Ive gone through it a few times and always the same result. What i can do is create a preset of it but i really wanted it as a profile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaGuyUK Posted April 10 Share #250 Posted April 10 9 minutes ago, jaapv said: My Spyder was not recognized any more after my latest OS update so I switched back to using my iDisplay Pro. Which OS? That`s worrying Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 10 Share #251 Posted April 10 Have a look at your Lightroom settings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 10 Share #252 Posted April 10 24 minutes ago, LeicaGuyUK said: Which OS? That`s worrying Sequoia 15.3.2 M2 Pro 32 GB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marchyman Posted April 10 Share #253 Posted April 10 7 hours ago, LeicaGuyUK said: Which OS? That`s worrying I switched from using the Spyder to the iDisplay years ago because the Spyder software broke most every release of MacOS. Then they stated there would be no more updates for the version I had and would have to buy new unit. That's when I switched to the then X-rite i1 Display and have been using it ever since. There have been software update, but I don't remember a time that it simply stopped working. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaGuyUK Posted April 10 Share #254 Posted April 10 50 minutes ago, marchyman said: I switched from using the Spyder to the iDisplay years ago because the Spyder software broke most every release of MacOS. Then they stated there would be no more updates for the version I had and would have to buy new unit. That's when I switched to the then X-rite i1 Display and have been using it ever since. There have been software update, but I don't remember a time that it simply stopped working. Luckily I have both platforms but I’ll check out the other brands mentioned as I’d like some consistency but I think most of my issues are with my voigtlander Ultron II 28 and this magenta cast. Just flicking through some initial images I took with my summarit 50 and no magenta! I’m not a 50 guy so I can see an elmarit 28 being purchased soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted April 11 Share #255 Posted April 11 (edited) sorta stumbled into this thread as the M10 forum (I have a 10-R) is pretty quiet!! Ok over the years I've made a few posts about the nuts and bolts of the DNG pipeline within adobe and there's a few things here I feel worth mentioning Leica (or any camera OEM using DNG) are tied into what adobe says to do with the RAW files, various tags and info contained within the RAW file is mandated by the DNG spec (which is freely available online) Of course companies making picture editing apps can do what they please with this info. Those of use that use adobe are of course using an app that very much expects to see and use the various tags and info contained with the DNG RAW file In a hideous oversimplification (unless you want to spend your Friday night looking a 3x3 matrix inversion and multiplication tables?) this is how colour works in adobe The DNG has a tag in it called AsShotNeutral (ASN - it's a pseudo XYZ value) that denotes the er as shot neutral of the RAW colours. This value is then subject to maths by the camera profile to reach the CIE_XYZ D50 colour space white balance values. So Kelvin / tint are only really values derived from maths based on the profile used with adobe combined with the ASN tag. You can see this for yourself simply by swapping from 'adobe standard' to the Leica M11 profile. The as shot WB values change (because the profile is different), but the photo didn't change did it? (yes the colours changed - different profile- but the light in the photo didn't change) So basically kev = xxx and tint = xxx means nothing. It's all a lie man 😅 Some numbers set in stone within the DNG are multiplied by some numbers set in stone within the profile to give you either nice warm fuzzies (aaah k5000/tint1 just what I'd expect from midday sun) or grizzly bear sized anguish (k55950/tint+22 WTAF? that was midday sun) 'WB as shot' within adobe means only your starting point to make colour temp edits Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! How different do these look to you? A little bit maybe? The second image has these WB values But the first one these values If the WB is so different wouldn't we be able to see more of a difference? 😇 (The point I'm making is that if you know how profiles work, you can pretty much make any numbers you want for the WB values but it won't much change how the image looks) One must be careful with the adobe profiles too... adobe standard is the colour profile for your model of camera. adobe color, landscape, etc etc are generic colour tables made for every camera. This is fine in theory as it works like this: adobe standard will take EVERY individual model of camera and place it into the CIE_XYZ D50 colour space, then a one size fits all adobe color (sic), landscape, etc etc profile will have the same effect across the board. (I'm not a fan - but if it looks good to you then it feels good, use it) Some notes on profiling your own camera Yes this is a good idea 🙂 Your profile will live and die by how good a job you do of shooting the colour checker/passport/card with the colour squares. This profile will contain 9 (yes nine) sets of numbers per illuminant used. You don't get more numbers by going large with an 140 patch SG colour card compared to 24 on a colorchecker 24 Now if you shoot dual illuminants with your colour card (and if you don't really try for D50 or D55 light) you'll get a profile with two ColorMatrices. But adobe wants a lot more than this to work well. These ColorMatrices map ASN to WB numbers, then these values need chromatic adaptation into the CIE_XYZ D50 colour space via ForwardMatrices. Ideally after this step your profile will have a profile LUT ("ProfileHueSatMapDims") for each illuminant to control how the colours behave at various points of exposure (because ForwardMatrices are a fixed point and the profile LUTs allow for elasticity) adobe can live without the profile LUT, but it has to guess the chromatic adaptation into if the CIE_XYZ D50 if instruction isn't provided. -------------- Now I don't have an M11, but it seems a few folks find the images to full of magenta (and a few don't) Looks to me like something a bit like this is happening Of course if I move the blue slider to the left the magenta would go away.... But I digress yet again.. Now if Leica wanted to fix (sic) this magenta, they would need to do this by changing their WB algorithm that produces the ASN tag within the DNG. They have done this before (240/M10) but it doesn't look like they want too this time, cos it's been ages since the M11 came out and they haven't. You won't be able to profile away this magenta though, why not? Well because the software that makes the profile will seek to find a balance between all of the colour patches... and as bad a B2 and c1 look (the blues) some of the other patches aren't so bad at all... If you wanted to profile this magenta away... I suspect you'd need a ProfileLookTableDims, which is a LUT within the profile that adobe processes after the basic ASN to CIE_XYZ D50 adaptation which can control various subjective looks to the file. Like WB. Further reading DNG Spec Particularly page 100 For a well written and easily understandable breakdown of profile design see Lumariver's profile making theory page Edited April 11 by Adam Bonn 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! How different do these look to you? A little bit maybe? The second image has these WB values But the first one these values If the WB is so different wouldn't we be able to see more of a difference? 😇 (The point I'm making is that if you know how profiles work, you can pretty much make any numbers you want for the WB values but it won't much change how the image looks) One must be careful with the adobe profiles too... adobe standard is the colour profile for your model of camera. adobe color, landscape, etc etc are generic colour tables made for every camera. This is fine in theory as it works like this: adobe standard will take EVERY individual model of camera and place it into the CIE_XYZ D50 colour space, then a one size fits all adobe color (sic), landscape, etc etc profile will have the same effect across the board. (I'm not a fan - but if it looks good to you then it feels good, use it) Some notes on profiling your own camera Yes this is a good idea 🙂 Your profile will live and die by how good a job you do of shooting the colour checker/passport/card with the colour squares. This profile will contain 9 (yes nine) sets of numbers per illuminant used. You don't get more numbers by going large with an 140 patch SG colour card compared to 24 on a colorchecker 24 Now if you shoot dual illuminants with your colour card (and if you don't really try for D50 or D55 light) you'll get a profile with two ColorMatrices. But adobe wants a lot more than this to work well. These ColorMatrices map ASN to WB numbers, then these values need chromatic adaptation into the CIE_XYZ D50 colour space via ForwardMatrices. Ideally after this step your profile will have a profile LUT ("ProfileHueSatMapDims") for each illuminant to control how the colours behave at various points of exposure (because ForwardMatrices are a fixed point and the profile LUTs allow for elasticity) adobe can live without the profile LUT, but it has to guess the chromatic adaptation into if the CIE_XYZ D50 if instruction isn't provided. -------------- Now I don't have an M11, but it seems a few folks find the images to full of magenta (and a few don't) Looks to me like something a bit like this is happening Of course if I move the blue slider to the left the magenta would go away.... But I digress yet again.. Now if Leica wanted to fix (sic) this magenta, they would need to do this by changing their WB algorithm that produces the ASN tag within the DNG. They have done this before (240/M10) but it doesn't look like they want too this time, cos it's been ages since the M11 came out and they haven't. You won't be able to profile away this magenta though, why not? Well because the software that makes the profile will seek to find a balance between all of the colour patches... and as bad a B2 and c1 look (the blues) some of the other patches aren't so bad at all... If you wanted to profile this magenta away... I suspect you'd need a ProfileLookTableDims, which is a LUT within the profile that adobe processes after the basic ASN to CIE_XYZ D50 adaptation which can control various subjective looks to the file. Like WB. Further reading DNG Spec Particularly page 100 For a well written and easily understandable breakdown of profile design see Lumariver's profile making theory page ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/395270-getting-the-colour-right-on-the-m11-split-off-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5785177'>More sharing options...
elmars Posted April 12 Share #256 Posted April 12 Thank You for that! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted April 12 Share #257 Posted April 12 FWIW… the best advice has been mentioned many times in this thread, control WB values in camera (static kelvin, or “sunny” setting, custom setting with. WB card or whatever) and adjust to taste in post. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
costa43 Posted April 15 Share #258 Posted April 15 (edited) When I first starting using the M11-P I had it on auto white balance and the colours were a bit off from what I saw in reality. Since switching to daylight white balance in camera, the colours to my eye have been really accurate as a starting point. A test image below with some sky and colour. DNG converted in LR with the adobe standard profile. No edits to the file. This is pretty much exactly what I saw. I tend to prefer colours that make reality look better than it is but for accuracy, this is the closest I have experienced with an M. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited April 15 by costa43 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/395270-getting-the-colour-right-on-the-m11-split-off-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5787126'>More sharing options...
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