Leica M3 question urgent help needed !

[Big Jim]

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Hi 

I am hoping someone can help me as I’ve just taken delivery of a Leica M3 I ordered and I think it might have a problem with the viewfinder.

When I look straight into the viewfinder everything seems normal but on the right hand side I see a thin mirrored reflection of what is about 45 degrees to the left of the image I am pointing at. I see more of this mirrored image if I move my eye more to the left of the viewfinder. I don’t have this on my M2 and I find it quite disturbing. Surely this can’t be  normal ? 

If not any idea what it could be ? It was sent through the post but well packed. Could something in the rangefinder mechanism have shifted ? 

The urgency is I’m speaking to the seller soon so it would be helpful to know if this is a serious problem. Seriously gutted at the moment.


 

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Edited May 18, 2024 by Big Jim
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[Big Jim]

Just added pictures showing a mirror visible in viewfinder 

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Edited May 18, 2024 by Big Jim
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[UliWer]

Just had a look at my M3: I see the same reflection - apparantly from the prism - as you. So it seems to be normal. If you don‘t see it with the M2 this is normal as well, as the M2 has a completely different rangefinder. Not only the frames changed but also its optical system.

[Big Jim]

21 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Just had a look at my M3: I see the same reflection - apparantly from the prism - as you. So it seems to be normal. If you don‘t see it with the M2 this is normal as well, as the M2 has a completely different rangefinder. Not only the frames changed but also its optical system.

Thanks so much ! I was really worried. I’m just surprised that I haven’t read about this difference before. Even looking straight through the viewfinder I see this slight reflection and also a reflection of the frame lines. 

[UliWer]

Yes, if you don‘t look really straight but with a slight angle to the right you get a glimpse of those reflections.

Never mind. In practical use you’ll enjoy the large field of view of the the M3 viewfinder for 50mm or longer.  

Edited May 18, 2024 by UliWer

[250swb]

1 hour ago, Big Jim said:

Thanks so much ! I was really worried. I’m just surprised that I haven’t read about this difference before. Even looking straight through the viewfinder I see this slight reflection and also a reflection of the frame lines. 

If you don’t truly centre your eye on the view ahead through the viewfinder you’ll see all sorts of crazy stuff. It will come with a small amount of practice.

[Big Jim]

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22 hours ago, UliWer said:

Yes, if you don‘t look really straight but with a slight angle to the right you get a glimpse of those reflections.

Never mind. In practical use you’ll enjoy the large field of view of the the M3 viewfinder for 50mm or longer.  

I’m so sorry to come back again to this subject. I know I’m probably just being paranoid but I still somehow can’t believe that what I’m seeing is normal.
Do you also actually see the mirror if you look sideways into the viewfinder as in the pictures above ? 
Just to be clear it’s not just a reflection, it’s the mirror I’m seeing and the image at 45 deg to where I’m pointing. 
In order not to see this mirror in the viewfinder I need to hold the camera so that the right 50mm frame line edge is visible. But with nothing outside this frame line edge. Any minor movement away from this position and I see the mirror and an image. It’s really disturbing. So I see lots of space around the left frame line and (if I want to avoid seeing the mirror) none around the right line. It seems such an unnatural way to hold the camera and is very distracting. 
I’ve read extensively about the M3 and I’m just so surprised this has never been mentioned. 
I also see a slight shadow moving in the frame lines when I focus. 
The previous owner said he never noticed anything. I trust him totally but I can’t imagine anyone looking through this viewfinder not noticing this. It’s so odd. 

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Edited May 19, 2024 by Big Jim
Pic

[Big Jim]

I also just found a picture from the sellers listing that shows a mirror image on the right.

 

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[dickgillberg]

It's normal, just the way they work. If you take a picture you just look at the motiv and then you not see the reflection at all. My M3s are the same. Don't worry. 

[pixie]

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My M3 used professionally and pleasure is old! Received New in 1967! It's old! Investing in such old bodies is not wise! One knock and viewfinder is toast!

the balsam glues are weak. I love my M3.. but 24 years ago, added a new M6TTL. Sadly the Digital models are soon obsolete! May work but..

Edited May 21, 2024 by pixie
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[adan]

Of note: - Leica completely re-designed the M RF/VF for the M2 and all following cameras. Perhaps precisely to remove these (apparently normal) reflections (although they also changed the magnification).

The M3 RF/VF design can be seen here (third picture - right side) - all right-angle bends in the light.

https://leicasocietyinternational.org/blog/2019/08/homage-to-the-immortal-leica-m3-predecessors-and-progeny-of-the-most-influential-rangefinder-35mm-camera-ever

This is the M2.......M11 RF/VF light path - fewer bends in the light path, fewer mirrors/prisms.

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[Fotoklaus]

Just enjoy your camera. Everything is alright. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

1 of the reasons for changing from the M3 range/viewfinder to the M2 version in later models, was most likely the higher cost to manufacture the M3 range/viewfinder. In comparison to the cost of manufacturing the M2 version.

The M2 range/viewfinder version is the basis for future "M" camera range/viewfinders.

The largest portion of the difference in the customer's cost between M3 & M2 cameras, which were produced together for a number of years, was mostly due to the difference in the cost of the 2 range/viewfinder systems.

Both M3 & M2 range/viewfinders use Canada Balsam as a cement.

The M4, using a modified M2 range/viewfinder system, is the first model to use the improved cement. The M5 uses a modified M4 range/viewfinder. And, so on.

NOT including some limited edition models: Chronologically the first "M" camera is the M3. The second is the M2. The third is the M1, MD, MDa group. The fourth is the M4.

Because the numbers following the "M" are NOT chronological numbers. The numbers relate to features which that model of "M" camera has.

Which is why the camera that followed the M5 chronologically was an M4-2.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited May 22, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[williamj]

Contrary to some of the observations above in this thread, when I put my eye to the viewfinder on my M3, the frame lines fill the viewfinder and I cannot see any mirror images. Even if I take my eye away from the viewfinder and look into the viewfinder diagonally to the right I cannot see a mirror image. I will say that the right side of the viewfinder is not as dark as the left side, the left side is completely black. There is a small amount of light on the right side but no images, mirror or otherwise. I have an unmodified DS M3. 

[Big Jim]

Thanks everyone. Really interesting.
By pure coincidence I was in a camera shop in Zadar Croatia and the owner noticed my M3. He mentioned that he had his father’s M2 and M3 at the shop. So I was able to try a different M3 and can confirm what most have stated in this thread that the mirror / reflections were also present to exactly the same extent so must be normal. 
It’s true that some owners claim they don’t see them at all which is interesting because they are hard to miss. 
Anyway I’m glad it’s normal and I’m also glad it’s documented for other users as I’m still really surprised that in the many reviews I read this difference wasn’t mentioned. 

On another subject does anyone know where in might be possible to purchase (in Europe) a viewfinder ocular ? I mean a replaced eyepiece that is fitted to the camera that the diopter’s screw into ? 
Mine is quite marked. 

Edited May 25, 2024 by Big Jim

[williamj]

I believe that the rangefinder of the M3 went through serial development and there are at least three different types. This could explain why there are different descriptions of what people see in the viewfinder. That’s just a guess. 
In contrast the M2 rangefinder forms the basis for the rangefinders in all other M cameras.