New (small-ish) Lumix FF camera

[lct]

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2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

And the other way around as well, I'm sure. A matter of experimenting.

As you say. In my own experience with the FPL, my main issues have been with some Leica (21/3.4 asph, 28/2.8 asph v1) and Zeiss (ZM 21/4.5) lenses. Less so with Voigtlander’s (CV 21/3.5, 21/4, 28/2 asph) as far as my copies are concerned but i have no experience with the S9.

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[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

You know, everyone's always looking for this holy grail compact full frame camera. Thing is, we have it already. It's called the M. 

No autofocus. No IBIS. Rangefinder. Full of bugs. 9000€. Thanks but no, thanks.

[Simone_DF]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Why would you want to use M lenses on such a camera? To start with, the sensor is certainly not configured for this.

Most Voiglander lenses are optimized for digital and to work with mirrorless / non-M cameras. 

[jaapv]

Much as I like them, I would not like to be limited to Voigtländer. 

[Simone_DF]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Much as I like them, I would not like to be limited to Voigtländer. 

Same. But I don’t want to be limited by Leica either. 

[charlesphoto99]

55 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

No autofocus. No IBIS. Rangefinder. Full of bugs. 9000€. Thanks but no, thanks.

Most of the users commenting on here already have way more than that already invested in an M and lenses, if not multiple bodies of several generations. Plus the new firmware seems to have fixed most of the M11 bugs. But yeah, keep on GAS-ing, and wishing for more crutches packed into wishful thinking compact bodies that never turn out truly all that compact (esp the lenses). I'd rather Leica firm up their current line up with quality control and faster service times than introducing yet more technology they always seem to be behind on as it is when compared to the Japanese. 

[Simone_DF]

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44 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Most of the users commenting on here already have way more than that already invested in an M and lenses, if not multiple bodies of several generations. Plus the new firmware seems to have fixed most of the M11 bugs. But yeah, keep on GAS-ing, and wishing for more crutches packed into wishful thinking compact bodies that never turn out truly all that compact (esp the lenses). I'd rather Leica firm up their current line up with quality control and faster service times than introducing yet more technology they always seem to be behind on as it is when compared to the Japanese. 

Thanks, but the M is definitely not for me. I wouldn’t buy one not even for 900€, let alone 9000€. I’m glad it exists and that people create some great content with it, but no autofocus = no buy for me. 

[charlesphoto99]

6 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Thanks, but the M is definitely not for me. I wouldn’t buy one not even for 900€, let alone 9000€. I’m glad it exists and that people create some great content with it, but no autofocus = no buy for me. 

Fair enough. For me, even when I use AF cameras and lenses, I've always reverted to manual in both exposure and focus, because I want ultimate control, and I often just couldn't get the lens to focus where I wanted quickly enough. I want to be the one making the mistake, because then it's on me, not something out of my control. I certainly have made exceptions to that rule, but in general it's with lenses one would never attach to what one would refer to anything nearing 'compact.' 

[hansvons]

On 5/25/2024 at 8:08 PM, Simone_DF said:

I’m glad it exists and that people create some great content with it, but no autofocus = no buy for me. 

I can relate to that very much. The vast majority of people who take snaps want a solid AF.

As often cited, the range finder is an experience story. You love it or you hate it. If you want to be quick, like really quick, nothing beats a snappy AF. However, the manual focusing and the real-life vision of a range finder opposed to an EVF, makes you think deeper about what you do. Depending on personality and objectives, I’d argue that for some the range finder helps improve their photography. 

With a fully digital camera, AF and all the other bells and whistles, the viewfinder becomes solely a framing device. I’ve worked with the best EVFs on the market, including the SLs, and all of them are unpleasant, outright disappointing. They translate the lensed reality into an electronic version that doesn't even closely picture the promised WYSIWYG, as it can't read my mind and won’t pre-edit the image into an acceptable ballpark of my envisioned final image. 

That's why I argue myself into the conclusion that maybe a flippy screen is all I need on a AF-driven, digital camera. It may look un-photographic when holding a camera like a phone taking snaps, but so what. The results justify the means (that's why I prefer shooting analogue with an M).

[lct]

It is not only an RF vs LV question as some people like using manual lenses in live view mode as well. Compared to M-mount cameras, the merits of compact full frame L-mount cameras like Sigma FP/FPL or Panasonic S9 is allowing for both AF and MF lenses, although they don't feature auto image magnification aka auto zoom. Also such cameras are handy for people using FF and crop lenses. A good way to keep using compact AF lenses like Leica TL ones that can survive discontinued CL and TL bodies this way. Only issues besides the lack of RF, if any, are the lack of M mount and auto zoom for M lens users and also the reduced pixel count in crop mode, except for high res cameras. I wonder if Panasonic is preparing a 60mp variant similar to the Sigma FPL with accessory or preferably built-in EVF.

[jaapv]

The question is of course whether the Leica adapter has its full functionality on this camera. 

[lct]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The question is of course whether the Leica adapter has its full functionality on this camera. 

It has not on the Sigma FPL but close focus adapters can be used to focus M lenses from 0.5m or less to infinity.

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

It has not on the Sigma FPL but close focus adapters can be used to focus M lenses from 0.5m or less to infinity.

True, but I tend to use dedicated macro lenses for the purpose. 

[lct]

The purpose of close focus adapters is not only macro per se but extending focus ranges the same way as modern Leica M lenses with 0.3m MFD for instance. The IQ at 0.3m is not the same of course but i can use all my M-mount lenses on the Sigma FPL, including the Macro-Elmar 90/4 with or without macro adapter and with or without close focus adapter. I have no idea if the S9 can do the same though.

[OR120]

4 hours ago, lct said:

It is not only an RF vs LV question as some people like using manual lenses in live view mode as well. Compared to M-mount cameras, the merits of compact full frame L-mount cameras like Sigma FP/FPL or Panasonic S9 is allowing for both AF and MF lenses, although they don't feature auto image magnification aka auto zoom. Also such cameras are handy for people using FF and crop lenses. A good way to keep using compact AF lenses like Leica TL ones that can survive discontinued CL and TL bodies this way. Only issues besides the lack of RF, if any, are the lack of M mount and auto zoom for M lens users and also the reduced pixel count in crop mode, except for high res cameras. I wonder if Panasonic is preparing a 60mp variant similar to the Sigma FPL with accessory or preferably built-in EVF.

lct - I agree - maybe in the not so distant future - the S9 Pro will appear - 

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, hansvons said:

I can relate to that very much. The vast majority of people who take snaps want a solid AF.

As often cited, the range finder is an experience story. You love it or you hate it. If you want to be quick, like really quick, nothing beats a snappy AF. However, the manual focusing and the real-life vision of a range finder opposed to an EVF, makes you think deeper about what you do. Depending on personality and objectives, I’d argue that for some the range finder helps improve their photography. 

I completely agree with you, and that’s the reason why I kept a Voigtlander Bessa R2A as my film camera. But while film is my guilty pleasure, I want / need solid AF for digital. 
That said, I actually prefer EVFs to both OVFs and framelines. 

[Simone_DF]

There’s an interesting interview with Panasonic about the S9:

https://www.kitamura.jp/shasha/panasonic/lumix-s9-20240523/

[helged]

16 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

There’s an interesting interview with Panasonic about the S9:

https://www.kitamura.jp/shasha/panasonic/lumix-s9-20240523/

So (essentially) S5ii without electronic view finder and mechanical shutter. I like it, not as an all-singing-all-dancing body, but as a supplement to one of the ‘standard’ Leica and Panasonic FF bodies.

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[OR120]

Hello helged - that's just about how I'm looking at it (S9)  as you said - "I like it, not as an all-singing-all-dancing body, but as a supplement to one of the ‘standard’ Leica and Panasonic FF bodies."

I'm in no rush so I'll wait for a while after the release to the public and get a better feel for the camera. I would use the S9 with Leica M and R lenses for the most part. Maybe a  Lumix lens. Maybe an old Nikon or Zeiss lens too. Many options, also thinking there might be a S9 Pro down the line? I'll get a much better idea when I hold one in my hands. No rush.

Edited June 20, 2024 by OR120

[Simone_DF]

3 hours ago, OR120 said:

there might be a S9 Pro down the line?

It’s there already, it’s called S5II