If an M camera with an EVF was released, would it replace your SL?

[Simone_DF]

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12 hours ago, BernardC said:

You must have misread. What I wrote was:

It wouldn't have made sense to say that the SL sold in record amounts. Unlike the M, there was no history/record to compare it to.

Yup, I misread your post. My bad. I understand what you mean now and agree with you actually, except for:

12 hours ago, BernardC said:

within a year. Canon, Nikon, and Sony immediately started working on their own professional mirrorless bodies, which were released around the same time as the SL2.

No, not really. the A7RII and A7SII were both released in 2015 and they were Sony's first camera also aimed to a more professional market.

The A9 was released in 2017.

The Leica SL2 was released in 2020.

Canon and Nikon didn't follow Leica, but Sony, which at the time was dominating the mirrorless market while DSLR's were stagnating. 

[Simone_DF]

6 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Leica should drop the Digilux and the S system. 

Isn't the Digilux EOL? Panasonic said they won't be doing any small compact anymore. Without that, Leica won't have a body to repackage.  

[adan]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Isn't the Digilux EOL?

Well - yes. That last time Leica sold a "Digilux" was fifteen years ago (Digilux 3).

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Digilux_3

If people mean D-Lux/C-Lux/V-Lux - they should say so.

And yes, those also are gone - Panasonic (who produced them) exited the "tiny sensor" P&S market about 2 years ago.

...............

On the original topic - seems like people are circling around the idea of a camera that triangulates from the SL (L-mount + EVF), the M (size, plus adapter), and the CL (size, and orphaned APS-C lens capability).

Question - do the L-mount FF cameras accept CL/TL lenses with a crop mode (APS-C crop box projected in the EVF, reduced-sized jpeg/.DNG files)?

I'm seeing conflicting reports about the new Panasonic "mystery camera" to be introduced this month - some say fixed-lens, some say L-mount.

(Although frankly, there's no serious reason it couldn't come both ways - just requires a metaphorical "welding torch." 😉 Even Leica made a few "fixed-lens Ms." )

https://classic.leica-camera.com/de/en/lcde/Leica-M-post-camera-from-1960/10101SH-987544 )

Maybe that, released in both Panny and Leica livery, will simultaneously be the "small SL," "EVF M," and "CL2.5" With reduced-cost Panasonic manufacturing (and why not? Minolta actually built the 1970s film-CL "Leica" cameras, for the same reason).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_CL

.....

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/is-panasonics-new-camera-gunning-for-the-fujifilm-x100vi-and-leica-q3

 

Edited May 3, 2024 by adan

[jaapv]

Well, if somebody tells me that something new is coming but that he does not know what is coming I do not feel very much enlightened. 
 

Leice Post cameras were never sold to the general public, they were a special order for Deutsche Post. 

[adan]

....and?

[jaapv]

Well, that was my idea watching that video… Not your post as such, BTW. 

[adan]

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53 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Leica Post cameras were never sold to the general public, they were a special order for Deutsche Post. 

Of course - but that does not change the fact that any ICL camera CAN be turned into a fixed-lens camera, with minimal (if any) change required, from the lens mount back.

For all practical purposes, many Leica users effectively have a 50 or 35 "welded" to their Ms. if they never use anything else.

 

Yes it was not hard. In that time.

Leica did a lot of special orders even for individual customers back then. They built a microfilm printing device for my father, consisting of a modified Prado 150 slide projector,  special film trays and guides and a 45 degree mirror, and a Focomat base. 

[Simone_DF]

38 minutes ago, adan said:

Well - yes. That last time Leica sold a "Digilux" was fifteen years ago (Digilux 3).

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Digilux_3

If people mean D-Lux/C-Lux/V-Lux - they should say so.

 

Yes, you are correct, D-Lux! 
 

Yes, FF L mount cameras do accept APS-C lenses in crop mode. But given the size and weight of these cameras, they are no real replacement for the CL owners, except the FP and maybe the S5 line, which brings different issues to the table, like lack of EVF or resolution. 
 

Given that the Q3 sales have been stellar, even reaching the top 20 in Japan, that the X100V has been unobtanium for the last 3 years, and that Ricoh is still selling the same GRIII from 2019 like hotcakes, I’d say there’s a market for compact fixed lens cameras, APS-C or full frame. 
I’d buy a fixed lens Panny if it ticks the correct boxes for me, like a 50mm lens. 

[jaapv]

I have an S5, S5ii and a number of CL lenses. I would never consider using them, as it it far simpler to crop a FF shot in post.

[Dr. G]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Well, that was my idea watching that video… Not your post as such, BTW. 

There was another video he released about a week after that one that said the Panasonic camera that was coming would be fixed lens, full frame sensor.  So it all remains to be seen.

Edited May 3, 2024 by Dr. G

[algrove]

Anything new I would buy and then later decide if I sell or keep other Leica cameras in SL and/or Q formula.

[IkarusJohn]

Interesting discussion - particularly in the way it wanders!

The original question was - would an EVF based M replace your SL?  Answer, no.

It’s odd that when the issue of an EVF based M comes up, people start discussing SL, CL and Q cameras.  That’s hardly the point, surely?

The SL line is a universal mount, compatible with M & R lenses, and with fantastic with its own SL APO Summicrons, the Summilux and the zooms.  It also has video and so much else.  In my view, it is a flagship system.  I see zero point in putting an L mount into a M camera - no AF, no video … what you’re really looking for is a smaller SL.   An M sized camera with SL lenses? No thanks.

An APS-C M camera?  Why?  Leica might as well go ahead with a CL3, with discontinued TL lenses?  Can’t see that happening.

The references to the Q camera make no sense either.  The Qs have fixed lenses, leaf shutters and are optimised for the sensor, complete with software corrections in camera.  It’s a great concept, but has nothing to do with the M lenses, which require a focal plane shutter, a mount and a sensor which can cope with a multitude of legacy M lenses.  What would be left of the Q which isn’t an M camera with an EVF instead of the rangefinder?

I’m with Gordon on this - Leica should pour its resources into the Q, with focal length options, M with the M mount and firmly in the traditional M niche, and the SL line.  By all means, make a smaller SL, make the lenses smaller, even develop an APS-C variant, but it has nothing to do with the M.

The bigger risk is that Leica gets confused by trying to introduce SL features into the M system.  For me, the starting point is the M3 - what do you NEED to add to that camera?  You end up with the M-A, MP (with meter), M9 or M10 (digital).  Add an EVF? Sure, as it solves some problems.  Turn it into an L line camera? No thanks.

[Jeff S]

I could see a “traditional” M digital (RF based) sold alongside a variant (called whatever) with M mount and built in EVF.  Don’t know if Leica sees this as viable economically/profit-wise.
 

The part I personally don’t like is turning the “traditional” one into a techno-wonder, which seems where the M11 was headed. But I’m not losing any sleep over any of it.  Gear has not been the limiting factor in my photography for a long time, if ever. Just need to keep motivated.
 

Jeff

[tomasis7]

12 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Interesting discussion - particularly in the way it wanders!

The original question was - would an EVF based M replace your SL?  Answer, no.

It’s odd that when the issue of an EVF based M comes up, people start discussing SL, CL and Q cameras.  That’s hardly the point, surely?

The SL line is a universal mount, compatible with M & R lenses, and with fantastic with its own SL APO Summicrons, the Summilux and the zooms.  It also has video and so much else.  In my view, it is a flagship system.  I see zero point in putting an L mount into a M camera - no AF, no video … what you’re really looking for is a smaller SL.   An M sized camera with SL lenses? No thanks.

An APS-C M camera?  Why?  Leica might as well go ahead with a CL3, with discontinued TL lenses?  Can’t see that happening.

The references to the Q camera make no sense either.  The Qs have fixed lenses, leaf shutters and are optimised for the sensor, complete with software corrections in camera.  It’s a great concept, but has nothing to do with the M lenses, which require a focal plane shutter, a mount and a sensor which can cope with a multitude of legacy M lenses.  What would be left of the Q which isn’t an M camera with an EVF instead of the rangefinder?

I’m with Gordon on this - Leica should pour its resources into the Q, with focal length options, M with the M mount and firmly in the traditional M niche, and the SL line.  By all means, make a smaller SL, make the lenses smaller, even develop an APS-C variant, but it has nothing to do with the M.

The bigger risk is that Leica gets confused by trying to introduce SL features into the M system.  For me, the starting point is the M3 - what do you NEED to add to that camera?  You end up with the M-A, MP (with meter), M9 or M10 (digital).  Add an EVF? Sure, as it solves some problems.  Turn it into an L line camera? No thanks.

+1

Initially, I'd yes to a cheap body with EVF with fewer features but it will never happen in the Leica world. 

Developing Visoflex 3.0, almost as good as the SL EVF,  is a better bet. It costs 1500-2000 euros as an accessory and only M12 or newer will support it. 

Then we have the Leica body lineup intact. The M popularity will grow then as well as the used ones. 

 

 

[CptSlevin]

SL is the best platform for adapting M lenses with minimal costs.
M with evf would cost around ~12k euro, which is not acceptable, but people will still buy it, even after M11 flop with all its' bugs and freezes

[Leslie22]

Was the M11 a flop ????

Gee , it’s my all time favourite M.

[aj55]

Has anybody ever tried a Sony A7c with a M to E adapter?

[CptSlevin]

6 hours ago, Leslie22 said:

Was the M11 a flop ????

Gee , it’s my all time favourite M.

The fact that M11 is the only M except M9 (which was the first FF M) is so badly hardwired is unbeatable.
This is just unacceptable for the price Leica asks

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[Jean-Michel]

The advantage of the classic M is it's clean direct view window and its rangefinder. You view, frame, focus and press the shutter, it all happens very quickly, end of story.

SLRs introduced a more precise framing at the expense of viewing the image at whatever widest aperture of the mounted lens and adding the tiny delay to allow the mirror to flip out of the way before the exposure is made.

Mirrorless cameras also show the more exact framing at the wide-open aperture. Except for cameras with a global shutter, the actual exposure time span is whatever the readout time is, even if the exposure time is a ridiculous 1/8000 sec – the so-called rolling shutter.

AF lenses are all great.

You can now mount M lenses on a whole variety of mirrorless cameras, and that is great too. I have the M-L adapter for my SL2 and use is occasionally. I however find the is is far easier to simply use my M lens on may M-P(240), especially wider angle lenses. Even wide-open a wide angle lens image looks pretty much in in focus in the mirrorless viewfinder and you need to 'zoom' in order to nail focus, it all takes time. Far faster with the rangefinder. I admit that I like to frame my WATE with the EVF-2 and focus it with the rangefinder when not just zone focus.

The one feature i would definitely pay for would be some sort of IBIS for the M.

 

Edited May 19, 2024 by Jean-Michel
typo

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[hamey]

NO.  I will never trade my SL system for an M  Camera  for me, it would be sacrilege to do so.

I come back to Leica after a 10 years  because of the SL (Selective Lenses)  just love the system. 

All my present Lenses (R, M, Canon EF and Zeiss Milvas ) are operational once again, thanks to the SL system.

For me it's winner, and most satisfying,  thank you Leica.

Ken.