Looking for a bit of advice on buying a used M10

[Hakiroto]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi, everyone!

I'm currently in the market for a used M10. I fell in love with the M11 when I tried one, but I think the sensible move is to get a used M10 as my first rangefinder, invest in a good lens, and see where that takes me.

I'd like the right one to appear at a Leica store so I'd get that warranty and peace of mind, but I'm not sure how realistic that is. Anyway, I'm based in Germany, which I'm not sure is a good thing or a bad thing with regard to the used market, but I have a few questions.

• Is it true that only Leica can know the true shutter count of a body? What's a reasonable number (if it's known) for a used M10?
• What should I look out for when buying a used M10? Are there any immediate red flags to look out for?
• What's a reasonable price for a used M10? Right now, for example, I see an "A/B" condition M10 in Leica Store Wien for 4200 €. If Leica charge that, what's expected when buying privately? I've seen a few around 4000–4500 €. Is that fair? I've never spent that much on a used camera before, so I'm naturally a little nervous.
• Is there anything else I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance! Hopefully I'll be spending more time in this community in the coming months if I get lucky and find the right now. Have a nice weekend!

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[dpitt]

Hi,
Welcome to this forum.

I think it is a good thing that you live in Germany, regarding supply and service of Leica gear.

You say that you fell in love with the M11 which I can completely relate to. My first love was an M8 ages ago, love at first sight when I held it in my hands for the first time...🙂

Do you have experience with rangefinders in general? Maybe you used a film M before?
This is an important question since the Leica M range is quite unique on that point compared to any other system camera available today. In general people love using them and can achieve excellent results. But it comes with some limitations and particularities that might take some practice. And using the rangefinder brings some physical limitations as well.

So before giving advice, please let us know a bit more about your experience and preferred subjects.

[TomB_tx]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

. Get a M10-P instead. So worth it with all the additional stuff in it.

At my age More Stuff = more to go wrong and confuse me.

Give me the basics.

[AdrianMastronardi]

If you like Leica warranty, I recommend looking at pre-owned here:

• Leica classical site: https://classic.leica-camera.com/uk/en/lcuk/Leica-Systems/M-System/
• Leica France: https://www.leica-camera-france.fr/occasions
• Leica Amsterdam: https://www.leicastoreamsterdam.nl/used-leica/

I hope it helps.

[evikne]

1 hour ago, TomB_tx said:

At my age More Stuff = more to go wrong and confuse me.

Give me the basics.

There's one thing the M10-P has less of: shutter noise. 😉

[darylgo]

4 hours ago, Al Brown said:

4. Get a M10-P instead. So worth it with all the additional stuff in it.

+1 on the M10P.  It was a large leap forward. 

Your idea of starting with an M10 is well-thought out.  Skip the M11 and then evaluate the future M12 if you want or desire.

The camera is important, the camera and lens working well together is also very important.  Do you have a lens?  The body may be fine, the lens may be fine but the rangefinder with the combination may not.  I find this to be the crucial issue, image quality suffers significantly.  

[dugby]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

19 hours ago, Hakiroto said:

Hi, everyone!

I'm currently in the market for a used M10. I fell in love with the M11 when I tried one, but I think the sensible move is to get a used M10 as my first rangefinder, invest in a good lens, and see where that takes me.

I'd like the right one to appear at a Leica store so I'd get that warranty and peace of mind, but I'm not sure how realistic that is. Anyway, I'm based in Germany, which I'm not sure is a good thing or a bad thing with regard to the used market, but I have a few questions.

• Is it true that only Leica can know the true shutter count of a body? What's a reasonable number (if it's known) for a used M10?
• What should I look out for when buying a used M10? Are there any immediate red flags to look out for?
• What's a reasonable price for a used M10? Right now, for example, I see an "A/B" condition M10 in Leica Store Wien for 4200 €. If Leica charge that, what's expected when buying privately? I've seen a few around 4000–4500 €. Is that fair? I've never spent that much on a used camera before, so I'm naturally a little nervous.
• Is there anything else I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance! Hopefully I'll be spending more time in this community in the coming months if I get lucky and find the right now. Have a nice weekend!

I support the above suggestions to try and get an M10-P, and if your budget is "tight", don't hesitate to consider with an M10-P the lower cost lenses -

Zeiss Planar ZM 50mm f2  or  Zeiss Biogon ZM 35mm 2.8

 

These two lenses are tremendously outstanding image quality for their price and will partner superbly with the M10-P.

 

[dpitt]

9 hours ago, darylgo said:

The camera is important, the camera and lens working well together is also very important.  Do you have a lens?  The body may be fine, the lens may be fine but the rangefinder with the combination may not.  I find this to be the crucial issue, image quality suffers significantly.  

I would even say that the lens is equally important or even more important. If budget is tight you could maybe start with a cheaper/older alternative initially. But on the long run you will get more value for money if you cut the cost for the body and spend a bit more on a lens. A good lens will stay with you much longer than a digital body, and it is a better investment on the long term. I hope to get some feedback from the OP regarding budget, style and experience to help giving good advice.

Edited April 21, 2024 by dpitt

[Almizilero]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Al Brown:

1. For M10 shutter count there is a desktop app, you connect to the camera via wi-fi https://tsoniq.com/download/Leica Sync 1.4.dmg

Thanks for that! I've been using this app all the time for file tranfer and didn't know it could do this as well!

[brickftl]

good idea. I also bought a used M10 as my first rangefinder even though budget would have allowed for any of the other M10 variants or a M11. I bought from KEH for about $4400 and got an inexpensive 3 year warranty against defects/accidents. I just checked their website and saw they have this available: https://www.keh.com/shop/leica-m10-digital-camera-body-silver-24-m-p-1.html

And what a pleasure dealing with 24mp images with the exact same sensor as my original Leica Q (whose images I preferred much more than images from my subsequent Q2 and Q3).

Also after much experimenting with Voigt lenses, I finally settled on these three for my kit: 21/3.4 super elmar, 35/1.4 lux steel rim reissue, and 50/1.4 lux asph. I love them all but probably the steel rim the most for its character wide open. 

Be sure to report back on what you end up with.

Edited April 21, 2024 by brickftl

[Hakiroto]

On 4/20/2024 at 5:05 PM, dpitt said:

Hi,
Welcome to this forum.

I think it is a good thing that you live in Germany, regarding supply and service of Leica gear.

You say that you fell in love with the M11 which I can completely relate to. My first love was an M8 ages ago, love at first sight when I held it in my hands for the first time...🙂

Do you have experience with rangefinders in general? Maybe you used a film M before?
This is an important question since the Leica M range is quite unique on that point compared to any other system camera available today. In general people love using them and can achieve excellent results. But it comes with some limitations and particularities that might take some practice. And using the rangefinder brings some physical limitations as well.

So before giving advice, please let us know a bit more about your experience and preferred subjects.

Thank you very much for your reply, and apologies for the delayed response.

No, I don't have any real experience with rangefinders other than playing around very briefly with a friend's M6 and the M11 in the Leica store. While I'll only really know by owning one, I feel like I have a good understanding of the limitations of a rangefinder compared to a modern mirrorless, and I'm also very much aware of how stripping everything back to basics can be a very rewarding experience for some. That's what I'm looking for — a tool that'll let me strip away all the extras and focus on being there in the moment, taking the photo. I've bounced around a few mirrorless cameras over the last 10 years — Canon, Fujifilm, and Sony — and I seem to enjoy myself the most when things are the most basic. I realised this when I got the famous Sony autofocus in an a7 IV. Despite having that, I had absolutely no desire to pick that camera up and go and take some photos on the street.

Whether a rangefinder is right for me, I'm yet to find out, but I'm fortunate enough to be borrowing a used M10 and 50mm Summicron from a local Leica store this weekend, so I'll have a couple of days to really see if it works for me. I'm really excited about it.

On 4/21/2024 at 12:14 AM, darylgo said:

+1 on the M10P.  It was a large leap forward. 

Your idea of starting with an M10 is well-thought out.  Skip the M11 and then evaluate the future M12 if you want or desire.

The camera is important, the camera and lens working well together is also very important.  Do you have a lens?  The body may be fine, the lens may be fine but the rangefinder with the combination may not.  I find this to be the crucial issue, image quality suffers significantly.  

Thanks! Yeah, I'd really like to get the M10-P. Here in Germany, you can get a good used M10 for around 4000 €, but a good used M10-P can be ~5500 €. For me, with it being my first M, I feel like it might still be best to go with the M10 and put that ~1500 € towards a nice Leica lens. I can already see myself trading in the body for a newer one a year or two down the line if I love the experience, but I feel like it might be smarter to lower the cost of entry as much as reasonably possible for now.

On 4/21/2024 at 5:18 PM, brickftl said:

good idea. I also bought a used M10 as my first rangefinder even though budget would have allowed for any of the other M10 variants or a M11. I bought from KEH for about $4400 and got an inexpensive 3 year warranty against defects/accidents. I just checked their website and saw they have this available: https://www.keh.com/shop/leica-m10-digital-camera-body-silver-24-m-p-1.html

And what a pleasure dealing with 24mp images with the exact same sensor as my original Leica Q (whose images I preferred much more than images from my subsequent Q2 and Q3).

Also after much experimenting with Voigt lenses, I finally settled on these three for my kit: 21/3.4 super elmar, 35/1.4 lux steel rim reissue, and 50/1.4 lux asph. I love them all but probably the steel rim the most for its character wide open. 

Be sure to report back on what you end up with.

That sounds like a great setup. Yeah, I've heard quite a few people talking about how much they enjoy the sensor on the M10. I'm borrowing one this weekend, so I'm looking forward to taking a lot of photos and playing with the files. How do you find them to be straight out of camera? I've found myself enjoying editing less and less, but I'm certainly not against editing. It's just sometimes nice to get something you're happy with straight out of camera.

[dpitt]

7 hours ago, Hakiroto said:

.... Whether a rangefinder is right for me, I'm yet to find out, but I'm fortunate enough to be borrowing a used M10 and 50mm Summicron from a local Leica store this weekend, so I'll have a couple of days to really see if it works for me. I'm really excited about it....

Great. You mentioned all the right reasons to buy a Leica M. It's not only limited compared to others but it also offers a unique way of seeing the shot, like seeing outside of the frame and seeing the world like your eye sees it so not influenced by the focal length of the lens. And most of all, it does not get in your way like some computers disguised as camera's do today 🙂

I am confident that you will love the experience. Hopefully a weekend is enough to see the potential. Focusing takes some practice, so believe me, after a few weeks you will be faster than some (like me) with an AF system.

+1 on saving up a bit for a nice lens. Any Leica M will be a joy to use and in the big picture differences between the M10 and M10P will be really small. I would recommend looking into a nice vintage Leica Summicron 50. There is one for nearly every budget and you can not go wrong with any of them. My favorite is the Summicron v4 because it has a focus tab. It has the same optical performance of v5.  It is still in production today with the same optical design as in 1979. In case you wonder, most of us use this classification:

Summicron Guide Ken Rockwell

A lot of info can found on our Leica wiki including links to relevant posts : M Lenses

Edited April 25, 2024 by dpitt

[brickftl]

when I bought my M10 (my first manual camera since shooting a Canon AE1 in 1975), I wondered how well I'd adapt to rangefinder focus. Not only did I adapt well, but now can't imagine wanting to shoot auto focus (except when I shoot the ballet every year). If you're like me, it will ignite your joy of photography and you'll find yourself taking your camera out every chance you get. Good luck!

[nonoirie]

I bought a used M10P with 1 year Leica warranty this year for little over $6000 in the US.  It was in pristine condition with all the accessories in the original box and documents.  Since then I bought few Voigtlander lens to go along with it for now.  I'm sure you'll want at least one extra battery so keep that in mind also.  

Good Luck.