Missing images after first shoot with SL3

[jonoslack]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

14 hours ago, pgh said:

I've been seriously looking at this cam - the first new Leica released in a long time I've considered really as the M11 series hold no interest for me - but the reports about the M11 bugs and then now this are really a bit much. Nothing is perfect (though the M10 Monochrom is quite close) but I hope it is addressed quite soon.

FWIW, I've never, with any camera make or model, bought brand new cards and formatted such a card for a particular camera. Same with multiple M bodies I've had. Heck I still use cards that are 10 years old without issue as long as I'm hammering the shutter. One shouldn't need to faff around so much when formatting a card is the norm. Doesn't seem it prevented anything here anyways. 

 

I quite agree - same here - I have a series of cards which have worked in older cameras - I do usually format in the camera before shooting, but that's because it's part of my workflow . . . . at least the cards from the major manufacturers should work . . . on the other hand I don't really think the issue here is with the card, but with the camera (even if it manifests itself worse with some cards), and I'm sure that Leica are working really hard to get it fixed ASAP. 

[jonoslack]

13 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

But, here we are… WE are guessing what might be. But it is Leica who should do this.

 

Indeed - but any piece of information given here might be a help to Leica, and be assured that Leica do know about this!

[MG Photo]

Problem "Solved."  After running some tests with the assistance of Jonoslack's questioning that jolted my brain, I have confirmed that the issue occurs when removing the battery from the camera WITHOUT power down. So if I've shot 300 photos and then Im mid shooting and ask an assistant to swap a battery, the normally hand me a new one and I pop out the current and swap in the new.  Sometimes I forget to power down (and have been working this way my whole career so this isn't anything new) and just swap in the new fully charged battery.  Upon doing this, It was confirmed that files I had shot previously to the battery swap go missing. I've also now been able to see that when reviewing images ONE at a time, there doesn't seem to be any missing. However, when I "zoom out" of the single image review and are looking at a grid of all the photos on my card, the images that are missing are indeed black with an error icon of some kind shown. In addition, this expanded menu seems to be corrupted with a red box outline seemingly out of place and "glitched" out. Check out the pics attached to this post. 

IMG_9366.HEIC IMG_9365.HEIC

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Do you think the camera is still writing the images to the card (slow card speed) when you pop the battery or it's just corrupting the last files, after they've been written, if you pop the battery? The latter shouldn't happen. I'd report it to Leica if that's the case. 

Gordon

[MG Photo]

43 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Do you think the camera is still writing the images to the card (slow card speed) when you pop the battery or it's just corrupting the last files, after they've been written, if you pop the battery? The latter shouldn't happen. I'd report it to Leica if that's the case. 

Gordon

Hi Gordon.  Most certainly the case that it's happening well after the files are properly written to the card. It's almost as if the battery pop is causing an over write of the files that were recently written.  It's weird for sure and I'm being sent a new SL3. Wondering if anyone here can recreate that fault with their SL3?

Sandisk CF Express Cards BTW. 256 MB 1200 MBPS write speed.

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Do you think the camera is still writing the images to the card (slow card speed) when you pop the battery or it's just corrupting the last files, after they've been written, if you pop the battery? The latter shouldn't happen. I'd report it to Leica if that's the case. 

Gordon

It feels more as if the camera keeps some data in its own memory (directory updates?j and saves it to SD card only when the camera turns off. I also consider that a bug that is worth reporting. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

8 hours ago, MG Photo said:

Hi Gordon.  Most certainly the case that it's happening well after the files are properly written to the card. It's almost as if the battery pop is causing an over write of the files that were recently written.  It's weird for sure and I'm being sent a new SL3. Wondering if anyone here can recreate that fault with their SL3?

Sandisk CF Express Cards BTW. 256 MB 1200 MBPS write speed.

So I took 10 frames. Waited 30 seconds and then popped the battery without powering off. Replaced battery and shot 5 more frames before checking.

All files present. Using a ProGrade CFE card 512GB. Not sure if this is enough of a test though.

Gordon

[LocalHero1953]

Sounds as if it might be related to the reproducible problem @Edax found with the M11. A matter of how the firmware records where on the card images have been stored and where new ones can safely be stored.

@MG Photo: have you reported this behaviour? 

Edited April 17, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[MG Photo]

13 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Sounds as if it might be related to the reproducible problem @Edax found with the M11. A matter of how the firmware records where on the card images have been stored and where new ones can safely be stored.

@MG Photo: have you reported this behaviour? 

I'm not sure about that users experiences but I did report the problem and am receiving a brand new SL3 tomorrow as a replacement which is great. I just hope the issue doesn't persist with that new camera.

[MG Photo]

15 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

So I took 10 frames. Waited 30 seconds and then popped the battery without powering off. Replaced battery and shot 5 more frames before checking.

All files present. Using a ProGrade CFE card 512GB. Not sure if this is enough of a test though.

Gordon

I would do that a few more times. Maybe take another 20 then pop it and see what happens. I feel like when i did my test I was doing more then 10 initial shots. More like 25-50

[Mikko Kankainen]

Happened to me too!

One team of football players are missing. Another photographer shutdown (or I quess put it to suspend) camera, took battery out to charge. Like we did between each team. Two cards, same for both. See screenshot.
Now I try to see if rescue finds photos.

I exported photos "HOUR" "MINUTE" "filename". 746-932 are missing.

So now we have to find out who are the persons that are "lost" and arrange a new photoshoot for one team if rescue does not find anything.

I have contacted local distributer and lets see what happens. For me this camera is a brick, I will not use it and dont trust it for heavy use. For a single client case yes but not for a mass photoshoot.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited April 18, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[Mikko Kankainen]

Images are gone, recovery finds only 2 .gz files of 500kb each that are right after that event. So suspend->battery charge->every image is missing from that point to point where battery was taken away again and charged.

And some images that was taken before one team was in one folder after that team, I did not reset image numbering but camera just created a folder and after another suspend->charge it went back one folder and continued to write there. But these are not lost, I just had to rename these.

I used SL3 in second day shooting, I shutdown (long press) before taking battery out, no problem. But of course this should not happen. I understand if camera is writing one image and you take battery out but even if camera was on and you take battery you should not loose image. Now camera was in suspend and have we lost 200 photos.

But it's just one phone call and we arrange another photoshoot. Think if this would have been wedding or something one time thing...

Edited April 18, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[Photoworks]

Does nobody see the red lights flashing when the camera is saving to the card?

Do you pull the battery before that?

[Mikko Kankainen]

33 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Does nobody see the red lights flashing when the camera is saving to the card?

Do you pull the battery before that?

I see it, even it's not very visible in SL3. As I said it does not explain 200 photos and I was not using the camera. He said that he pressed once shutdown and took the battery out. And yes I should have told that you need to hold to shutdown SL3, he is SL2 user. But I still dont think this should happen. And I bet if I try it images wont get lost. It's some sequence.

I have a fear that we are not the only one here. Keeping files is a holy thing, camera can even freeze or have a bad af but it should never loose 200 photos. I can only think that it's because it was going to sleep when battery was taken out. So it's important to shutdown camera. But I cannot be sure if this is the reason. However it's the only difference between monday and tuesday, he used suspend, I shutdown.

I sent Leica an email, they will most likely never get back to me, local camerastore uses their contact to Leica. I will give my SD-card that is "messed up" to them if it helps.

Edited April 18, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[FlashGordonPhotography]

8 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

I see it, even it's not very visible in SL3. As I said it does not explain 200 photos and I was not using the camera. He said that he pressed once shutdown and took the battery out. And yes I should have told that you need to hold to shutdown SL3, he is SL2 user. But I still dont think this should happen. And I bet if I try it images wont get lost. It's some sequence.

I have a fear that we are not the only one here. Keeping files is a holy thing, camera can even freeze or have a bad af but it should never loose 200 photos. I can only think that it's because it was going to sleep when battery was taken out. So it's important to shutdown camera. But I cannot be sure if this is the reason. However it's the only difference between monday and tuesday, he used suspend, I shutdown.

I sent Leica an email, they will most likely never get back to me, local camerastore uses their contact to Leica. I will give my SD-card that is "messed up" to them if it helps.

Agreed this is an absolute no no. Should NEVER happen.

So it looks like it’s when the camera is *sleeping* that’s when it all goes south. And because there’s no visual indicator it’s easy to pop a battery thinking the camera is off.

Bad. Very, vert bad….

Gordon

[Mikko Kankainen]

Absolutely yes and in my 15 years of doing this more seriously I have never lost a single image. This just should not be possible.

Another possibility is that camera did not even write images for this team but it should say something. We used 1sec preview both (to see that eyes are open) so there is that. Recovery software found also 4 jpg images taken in that series, we never use jpg, only dng. And they were rotated 90 degrees. And those .gz 500kb files.

Usually camera writes 1000 photos to one folder, creates new and so on. When he shot in day 1 with SL3, there was 4 folders created by camera and images were all over the place (in order but splitted weirdly to folders). I tried in the evening after we where back to "hotel" to take some test photos with his Sigma 135 1.8 to see how SL3 focuses with AF-c. Then I took the card out to make a backup. I saw right away that these test shots are missing. Then I looked deeper and found out that they are between earlier images, right in the middle of football pictures according to filename. The I click "sort by date taken", they showed up at last. So something was off.

Then I as usual clicked reset image numbering and after that no problem, but as I said I shutdown camera by long pressing.

Edited April 19, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[Mikko Kankainen]

Attached a picture to show timestamps and image numbering. I dont think I have ever seen anything like that either.

Now that I see there is also missing photos from 10 minutes after battery was back on. So one team totally missing, and few from next team. And I really cant say is it because of suspend or something else. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[LocalHero1953]

Random speculation: a time stamp bug introduced to the SL3 along with the hardware and firmware for video timecode syncing?

Edited April 19, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Random speculation: a time stamp bug introduced to the SL3 along with the hardware and firmware for video timecode syncing?

what does video TC have to do with the timestamp of a file?

this sounds more like a serious buffer/volatile memory problem

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Random speculation: a time stamp bug introduced to the SL3 along with the hardware and firmware for video timecode syncing?

My guess is a bug writing to the directory structure. There are two steps to writing a file: the raw data is written to disk first, and then the directory is updated with a file name, location, timestamp, etc.

It sounds like the data write happens, but the folder update is delayed (perhaps as a performance optimization). New files disappear if the battery or card are removed without warning.

It should be an easy bug to fix. At the very least, the camera should complete any pending updates before going to sleep. I wonder if the same thing happens with the S5II.