Why I bought the SL3

[algrove]

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IMHO, why do we buy into the SL system. That is the question. Some want to use their beloved M lenses on it where they can focus with an EVF. Some just want an AF Leica camera and associated high quality lenses with a high rating for dust and moisture. Then there is the mix of the two, where once into the system one will decide how to use it if already owning M lenses or not. For me it also depends on what I plan to do with my final images. I print my favorites, but these days only out to 17x30 maximum.

My experience to date:

I have found that over time after acquiring some L glass, a few long, some regular (35 and 50 for me) and a wide APO 28, I stopped using M lenses since they are not AF and I like the AF on the SL system, especially while using back button focus which separates the focus from the exposure settings, giving me the camera control over automation. This will magnify subjects using an manual focus lens.

It all started once the SL2S came out and I started to explore the SL system since I always thought 24MP was a sweet spot for me when using my older M cameras. Then I found that many pros had similar thoughts due to the larger pixel sizes of the 24MP sensor with what some call larger micrometers and thus the theory was less noise due to larger micrometers. Then the SL2S Reporter was introduced and I liked the look of it since the huge L-E-I-C-A letters where there, but not painted white, in fact they were not painted at all and there was no Red Dot logo either. I liked the Reporter paint color since I had also had the Q2 Reporter. I liked it so much I searched for a second SL2S Reporter model and secured one. Then I even got a third black SL2S since I had originally thought this would be the camera for shooting in wind and blowing sands and occasional rain and if no lens changes would be necessary it would be shoot til you drop. On my second journey, I decided to leave the M system at home (mainly due to longer lenses being available for the SL system) on long trips of drive-fly-drive taking over 10-12 or more hours, I would take just use 3 zoom lens in order to minimize lens changes in the conditions described above - the Leica 24-90, Pan 70-200 with 1.4x, Leica 100-400 with 1.4x. In 10 days of shooting on only one quiet morning did I change lenses out in the Death Valley wild and in the end that was not necessary. I also took the Q3. This was a camping trip of 6 nights so that long drives in the dark for sunrise would be mitigated. I slept in the back of a pickup truck with a heavy goose down sleeping bag and my driver/guide preferred sleeping on the sand with potential scorpions to keep him alert. This was during the late January- early February time period.

To date my favorite M lens on the SL is the Noctilux 0.95 which is unique on an SL and balances very well with its heavier weight. That said I seldom use it on the SL ever since getting a few APO primes. Talking with others that has been their experience too.

In rapid succession I took one trip to shoot Navajo in traditional dress (here I mainly used the APO 28 and found it perfect for interior shots and even environmental portraits) and on another separate trip I went to Death Valley during extensive flooding and some rain too, which is VERY rare in Death Valley. Blowing sand was present on both shoots.

Then once back home I compared some Q3 shots with 24MP SL2S shots and often preferred the Q3 resolution except when I used the SL2S in multi-shot mode giving 96MP images on a single DNG. Even though I very much like the 24MP results the 60MP sensor has many benefits as well, especially for intense cropping which I find myself doing from time to time.

Since already being familiar with the 60MP sensor in the M11 and M11M and now the Q3, I acquired the SL3. The SL2 was never on my radar as I felt that if all other models had the 60MP sensor then the SL would also get this sensor in the next model. The SL3 has not been used very much for shooting in earnest as I am spending lots of time getting used to the new UI, which for me is welcomed. Once I have decided on my settings I imagine going into the menu system will not be needed due to its new flexibility. On this model at least my User Profile I was using when turning it off, still appears when I turn it on again. I had been caught out on more than one occasion with that not happening on the UI of the SL2S. Perhaps user error-I do not know.

That has been my reasoning for getting the SL3 in stead of the SL2. Your mileage my vary.



 

[pcgarner]

Fascinating read and dense with thoughts/tech info. Each journey is individual, but yours is persuasive.

[KenTanaka]

I forgive you, my son.

😂

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, algrove said:

Then I found that many pros had similar thoughts due to the larger pixel sizes of the 24MP sensor with what some call larger micrometers and thus the theory was less noise due to larger micrometers.

That is bogus. In realistic situations (same output size), larger pixels (all else equal) do not produce images with less noise. 

[keeping_a_balance]

2 hours ago, algrove said:

IMHO, why do we buy into the SL system. That is the question. Some want to use their beloved M lenses on it where they can focus with an EVF. Some just want an AF Leica camera and associated high quality lenses with a high rating for dust and moisture. Then there is the mix of the two, where once into the system one will decide how to use it if already owning M lenses or not. For me it also depends on what I plan to do with my final images. I print my favorites, but these days only out to 17x30 maximum.

My experience to date:

I have found that over time after acquiring some L glass, a few long, some regular (35 and 50 for me) and a wide APO 28, I stopped using M lenses since they are not AF and I like the AF on the SL system, especially while using back button focus which separates the focus from the exposure settings, giving me the camera control over automation. This will magnify subjects using an manual focus lens.

It all started once the SL2S came out and I started to explore the SL system since I always thought 24MP was a sweet spot for me when using my older M cameras. Then I found that many pros had similar thoughts due to the larger pixel sizes of the 24MP sensor with what some call larger micrometers and thus the theory was less noise due to larger micrometers. Then the SL2S Reporter was introduced and I liked the look of it since the huge L-E-I-C-A letters where there, but not painted white, in fact they were not painted at all and there was no Red Dot logo either. I liked the Reporter paint color since I had also had the Q2 Reporter. I liked it so much I searched for a second SL2S Reporter model and secured one. Then I even got a third black SL2S since I had originally thought this would be the camera for shooting in wind and blowing sands and occasional rain and if no lens changes would be necessary it would be shoot til you drop. On my second journey, I decided to leave the M system at home (mainly due to longer lenses being available for the SL system) on long trips of drive-fly-drive taking over 10-12 or more hours, I would take just use 3 zoom lens in order to minimize lens changes in the conditions described above - the Leica 24-90, Pan 70-200 with 1.4x, Leica 100-400 with 1.4x. In 10 days of shooting on only one quiet morning did I change lenses out in the Death Valley wild and in the end that was not necessary. I also took the Q3. This was a camping trip of 6 nights so that long drives in the dark for sunrise would be mitigated. I slept in the back of a pickup truck with a heavy goose down sleeping bag and my driver/guide preferred sleeping on the sand with potential scorpions to keep him alert. This was during the late January- early February time period.

To date my favorite M lens on the SL is the Noctilux 0.95 which is unique on an SL and balances very well with its heavier weight. That said I seldom use it on the SL ever since getting a few APO primes. Talking with others that has been their experience too.

In rapid succession I took one trip to shoot Navajo in traditional dress (here I mainly used the APO 28 and found it perfect for interior shots and even environmental portraits) and on another separate trip I went to Death Valley during extensive flooding and some rain too, which is VERY rare in Death Valley. Blowing sand was present on both shoots.

Then once back home I compared some Q3 shots with 24MP SL2S shots and often preferred the Q3 resolution except when I used the SL2S in multi-shot mode giving 96MP images on a single DNG. Even though I very much like the 24MP results the 60MP sensor has many benefits as well, especially for intense cropping which I find myself doing from time to time.

Since already being familiar with the 60MP sensor in the M11 and M11M and now the Q3, I acquired the SL3. The SL2 was never on my radar as I felt that if all other models had the 60MP sensor then the SL would also get this sensor in the next model. The SL3 has not been used very much for shooting in earnest as I am spending lots of time getting used to the new UI, which for me is welcomed. Once I have decided on my settings I imagine going into the menu system will not be needed due to its new flexibility. On this model at least my User Profile I was using when turning it off, still appears when I turn it on again. I had been caught out on more than one occasion with that not happening on the UI of the SL2S. Perhaps user error-I do not know.

That has been my reasoning for getting the SL3 in stead of the SL2. Your mileage my vary.



 

I have been similar in the SL system was bought thinking more M lens use, but the more L mount glass I got the more I would use those and a very adequate system. 

Yet to upgrade to the SL3 but have added my name to a waitlist and will decide in a month or so when it should come due.  A pitty to potentially sell my SL2S but I personally can’t justify having it sitting on a shelf.

Thanks for sharing your experience, hope you enjoy the SL3

[algrove]

It is one perspective.

[SrMi]

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25 minutes ago, algrove said:

It is one perspective.

There are urban legends and there are facts.

Why not test it yourself? Or use DPR studio scene where you can resize to same output?

[scott kirkpatrick]

8 hours ago, algrove said:

 

IMHO, why do we buy into the SL system. That is the question. Some want to use their beloved M lenses on it where they can focus with an EVF.

And some (like me) want to use Peter Karbe's finest AF lenses.  Especially the APO 35, which I have trouble removing from my SL3, but also the 21, 28 and 50.

On my Ms I use all sorts of lenses, and a VF-2 when time permits.

[o2mpx]

@algrove, thanks for sharing, very nice read. 

There’s a consistent criticisms of high resolution sensors since the SL2 came out, that low light performance is crap, and many prefer the SL2-s.

Personally, as I shoot landscapes, and not often in low light perhaps, higher the resolution the better. There’s tangible detail from the X2D’s resolution better than the SL2’s. Having sold the SL2 in anticipation of the SL3, and using a Panasonic S5ii now, the 24mp resolution isn’t equivalent and will wait for SL3 showing up in the used market to pick one up to replace the S5ii. 

[rfunnell]

11 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

And some (like me) want to use Peter Karbe's finest AF lenses.  Especially the APO 35, which I have trouble removing from my SL3, but also the 21, 28 and 50.

On my Ms I use all sorts of lenses, and a VF-2 when time permits.

I agree Scott,  

The APO 35 is hard to beat on the SL3  Peter Karbe's finest AF lens.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

7 hours ago, o2mpx said:

@algrove, thanks for sharing, very nice read. 

There’s a consistent criticisms of high resolution sensors since the SL2 came out, that low light performance is crap, and many prefer the SL2-s.

Personally, as I shoot landscapes, and not often in low light perhaps, higher the resolution the better. There’s tangible detail from the X2D’s resolution better than the SL2’s. Having sold the SL2 in anticipation of the SL3, and using a Panasonic S5ii now, the 24mp resolution isn’t equivalent and will wait for SL3 showing up in the used market to pick one up to replace the S5ii. 

It's mostly because the average person testing just zooms to 100% and sees more noise and declares the test over. But when you match the output size the difference is reduced. It is not that it is a myth entirely, it is just that the effect is largely overblown. In the case of the SL2 and SL2S, my assumption is that the difference is more that they are different sensor manufacturers and tailored to different "missions" as it were. The SL2 was the sensor optimized for high resolution and detail, and the SL2 was a sensor optimized for low light performance and high ISO DR. It is better, but the difference is not as large as people seem to make it online. I recently took in an SL2S to go along with my SL2, and in comparing them the differences are not really significant until quite high ISOs, but there the SL2S is indeed better.

[LanceR]

Thank you for sharing your journey @algrove.  My journey is not so dissimilar, looking to use my M lenses with an EVF camera and open up other possibilities with the bevy of L lenses.  Fortunately, I put my name on the SL3 wait list early enough that I recv'd one on launch day.  I enjoy shooting my M lenses on the SL3.

This weekend, I am staying in Washington DC and rented a Leica 24-70 f/2.8.  It has been a long time since I have shot with an AF camera, except my phone, and I admit I enjoyed it.

Originally, I thought I would merely complement my M lenses in the SL system.  For example, the Voigtlander 35mm APO has been my everyday goto lens with my M11, so I would not look to get an SL 35mm.

I thought my first SL lens purchase would be a telephoto or macro lens.

Now I am not so sure, after enjoying the AF on the SL3.  I will probably try to stop by the DC Leica store to test the SL 35mm APO before I leave this afternoon.  The 24-70 is not my cup of tea.  It is a fine lens, but just too big for my needs.

[algrove]

20 minutes ago, LanceR said:

Thank you for sharing your journey @algrove.  My journey is not so dissimilar, looking to use my M lenses with an EVF camera and open up other possibilities with the bevy of L lenses.  Fortunately, I put my name on the SL3 wait list early enough that I recv'd one on launch day.  I enjoy shooting my M lenses on the SL3.

This weekend, I am staying in Washington DC and rented a Leica 24-70 f/2.8.  It has been a long time since I have shot with an AF camera, except my phone, and I admit I enjoyed it.

Originally, I thought I would merely complement my M lenses in the SL system.  For example, the Voigtlander 35mm APO has been my everyday goto lens with my M11, so I would not look to get an SL 35mm.

I thought my first SL lens purchase would be a telephoto or macro lens.

Now I am not so sure, after enjoying the AF on the SL3.  I will probably try to stop by the DC Leica store to test the SL 35mm APO before I leave this afternoon.  The 24-70 is not my cup of tea.  It is a fine lens, but just too big for my needs.

Those SL APO lenses are very nice. Say hi to Werner at the LWDC store if he is in.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb rfunnell:

I agree Scott,  

The APO 35 is hard to beat on the SL3  Peter Karbe's finest AF lens.

 

It will be even better on the mirrorless S4, likely with 100 MP, is my guess. One will need to crop the vignetting but can end up with more than 60 MP. 

[algrove]

9 hours ago, o2mpx said:

@algrove, thanks for sharing, very nice read. 

There’s a consistent criticisms of high resolution sensors since the SL2 came out, that low light performance is crap, and many prefer the SL2-s.

Personally, as I shoot landscapes, and not often in low light perhaps, higher the resolution the better. There’s tangible detail from the X2D’s resolution better than the SL2’s. Having sold the SL2 in anticipation of the SL3, and using a Panasonic S5ii now, the 24mp resolution isn’t equivalent and will wait for SL3 showing up in the used market to pick one up to replace the S5ii. 

I wonder if the criticism mixes different manufacturing specs since the BSI sensors seem to have better low light performance even at higher ISO levels than non-BSI sensors. If true, then the SL3 could be close to the SL2S in these terms.😀😂

BTW regarding a used SL3-I am keeping mine for the present.😉

[Chaemono]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb algrove:

I wonder if the criticism mixes different manufacturing specs since the BSI sensors seem to have better low light performance even at higher ISO levels than non-BSI sensors. If true, then the SL3 could be close to the SL2S in these terms.😀😂

BTW regarding a used SL3-I am keeping mine for the present.😉

If one takes an ISO 6400 picture with each camera in the same high contrast scene exposed to protect highlights and lifts exposure by +1 and shadows by +50 in post, the two cameras are miles apart. 

[algrove]

32 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

If one takes an ISO 6400 picture with each camera in the same high contrast scene exposed to protect highlights and lifts exposure by +1 and shadows by +50 in post, the two cameras are miles apart. 

When you say "with each camera" do you mean one with BSI and one without BSI or do you mean SL2S and SL3, just to make sure? Thanks.

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb algrove:

When you say "with each camera" do you mean one with BSI and one without BSI or do you mean SL2S and SL3, just to make sure? Thanks.

One with the SL2S and one with the SL3.

[algrove]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

One with the SL2S and one with the SL3.

Ok clear. I will try that since I thought it would be too close to call. So looks like I will keep at least one SL2S into the future.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[algrove]

17 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

And some (like me) want to use Peter Karbe's finest AF lenses.  Especially the APO 35, which I have trouble removing from my SL3, but also the 21, 28 and 50.

On my Ms I use all sorts of lenses, and a VF-2 when time permits.

If you use 90mm lenses, then the APO SL 90 is awesome too.