SL3 & AFc, examples and recommendations

[helged]

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Would be good to share experience/tips regarding SL3 and continuous AF shooting/tracking.

Attached is one out of six series of photos with Atlas as 'model', approaching me either half running (so with fairly low speed, as shown in the images below), or at full speed. Of a total of 45 images, 31 were in focus (69%), 7 had focus a little off (16%), whereas 7 were out of focus (16%). The results are not impressive compared to what is available out there (I have a Canon R5 that I typically use for this type of shooting; having experience with Nikon cameras before); but the results are much improved compared to SL2/SL2-S.

SL3 with SL24-90 at 90mm and f5.6. Settings are

• Shutter Type -> Mechanical
• Drive Mode -> 4 fps, 14 bit
• Focus Mode -> AFc
• AF Mode -> 'Animals (Beta)'
• Focus Settings -> AF Setup -> AF Profiles (with Pre-focus off) -> 'Wildlife' (default parameter settings)

Comments/recommendations:

• SL3 is useful as is for me, but it can and should (and will) be approved upon with FW updates. Good.
• It helps to be a little patient so that the camera is able to identify the target before pressing the shutter. This holds for all but the very top af-machines out there. 
• EVF black-out is a problem; it is not easy to follow a moving target when you only partly see the target... (OK, SL3 is not made for birds in flight etc, but nevertheless).
• 4 (or 5) fps with AF is too little to freeze a specific gesture or position; it would help to have 10+ fps (hard to improve upon for SL3 and it's 60 mp sensor, but SL3-S or Panasonic can improve on this; Panasonic S5ii has 9 fps with AF, I believe).

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[Chaemono]

Coupled with the superb IQ and the decent high ISO performance thanks to AI denoising (I posted in another thread about it), 69% percent hit rate in AFc make this a good enough upgrade form the SL2 IMO.

[Photoworks]

I need to get a faster model!

What I found strange is that when you go down in DNG size the FPs don't change. I suppose it is more a mechanical limitation than a processor.

[anickpick]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Photoworks:

I need to get a faster model!

What I found strange is that when you go down in DNG size the FPs don't change. I suppose it is more a mechanical limitation than a processor.

I believe the camera has still to read out the entire 60 megapixel sensor and then reduce the file size by calculation. 

[MGN]

I ran the same test with my dogs & a frisbee with the same settings on the SL3 and a 90 APO at f/2.0, with only about a 5% success rate.  When the pups walked across the yard (not toward me), a majority were in focus — the BETA animal tracking put a box around them and did a fairly good job of “sticking” to them.  But not when the pups came toward me (which is the toughest tracking for cameras, I know.)  They weren’t running, but walking/prancing steadily, so there shouldn't have been any trouble autofocusing.  Im relatively new to the SL system, but have been shooting about 20,000 action photos a year for decades.  I nail near 100% with the Canon R3 (and 1DX3 as a backup.)  I tried every combination of fps, bits, focus points, etc, that I could come up with, and there wasn’t a magical solution.  I even wondered if the camera itself is a dud version.  I’d welcome any ideas to test/improve.

Note:  The SL3 is otherwise brilliant, so this is not a complaint, rather an acknowledgment that there are different tools for different types of photos.  Nonetheless, I'd like to have AFc as an option even if not for sports.

[helged]

25 minutes ago, MGN said:

I ran the same test with my dogs & a frisbee with the same settings on the SL3 and a 90 APO at f/2.0, with only about a 5% success rate.  When the pups walked across the yard (not toward me), a majority were in focus — the BETA animal tracking put a box around them and did a fairly good job of “sticking” to them.  But not when the pups came toward me (which is the toughest tracking for cameras, I know.)  They weren’t running, but walking/prancing steadily, so there shouldn't have been any trouble autofocusing.  Im relatively new to the SL system, but have been shooting about 20,000 action photos a year for decades.  I nail near 100% with the Canon R3 (and 1DX3 as a backup.)  I tried every combination of fps, bits, focus points, etc, that I could come up with, and there wasn’t a magical solution.  I even wondered if the camera itself is a dud version.  I’d welcome any ideas to test/improve.

Note:  The SL3 is otherwise brilliant, so this is not a complaint, rather an acknowledgment that there are different tools for different types of photos.  Nonetheless, I'd like to have AFc as an option even if not for sports.

Interesting (or the opposite, depending on the eyes that see...). I have a Canon R5, and I am quite confident that that body, with eg RF 70-200mm f2.8 shot wide open, would nail the focus (near) 100 % of the time, even at 20 fps (with the electronic shutter). SL3 is clearly not there; but one would think that it should be able to track a running dog at 4 or 5 fps, if not at 100 %, at least at 70+ %, of the time. If not today, certainly with forthcoming FW updates.

The main (?) difference between your setting and the tests I reported at the top appears to be the aperture; you used f2 (this is, of course, fine) whereas I used a more modest f5.6. I plan to run more tests in the weekend with the dog running towards me. For this I plan to use Sigma 200-700 f2.8 DG DN that I just picked up. This lens is reported to have a very fast af mechanism, possibly faster than SL90, reducing the lens-part of the af equation. I will report back over the weekend.

During the first tests I run, I noticed that it takes some time for the camera to identify - and to the focus to lock on - the moving subject (the dog in my case). Once the camera had the dog in focus, I could start taking photos at 4 or 5 fps. If I started taking photos before the camera was 'ready'; most of the sequence could be out of focus. This is something I recall from the days when I used Nikon for wildlife photography (like Nikon D5 with 400mm f2.8), to be a little patient before starting taking photos. Experienced af-photographers like you are aware of this, but 'newcomers' may not realise this factor.

More over the weekend...

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, MGN said:

I ran the same test with my dogs & a frisbee with the same settings on the SL3 and a 90 APO at f/2.0, with only about a 5% success rate.  When the pups walked across the yard (not toward me), a majority were in focus — the BETA animal tracking put a box around them and did a fairly good job of “sticking” to them.  But not when the pups came toward me (which is the toughest tracking for cameras, I know.)  They weren’t running, but walking/prancing steadily, so there shouldn't have been any trouble autofocusing.  Im relatively new to the SL system, but have been shooting about 20,000 action photos a year for decades.  I nail near 100% with the Canon R3 (and 1DX3 as a backup.)  I tried every combination of fps, bits, focus points, etc, that I could come up with, and there wasn’t a magical solution.  I even wondered if the camera itself is a dud version.  I’d welcome any ideas to test/improve.

Note:  The SL3 is otherwise brilliant, so this is not a complaint, rather an acknowledgment that there are different tools for different types of photos.  Nonetheless, I'd like to have AFc as an option even if not for sports.

Did you use 5fps or less? If you used higher fps, AF would stick at the first image. That would keep the dog in focus if moving at the same distance from the cameras.

[Luke_Miller]

Don't have an SL3, but my experience with subjects moving towards me (even when walking) is that shutter speeds need to be higher than I expected.  I thought I had focus issues until I increased my shutter speeds.

[DrM]

4 hours ago, MGN said:

I ran the same test with my dogs & a frisbee with the same settings on the SL3 and a 90 APO at f/2.0, with only about a 5% success rate.  When the pups walked across the yard (not toward me), a majority were in focus — the BETA animal tracking put a box around them and did a fairly good job of “sticking” to them.  But not when the pups came toward me (which is the toughest tracking for cameras, I know.)  They weren’t running, but walking/prancing steadily, so there shouldn't have been any trouble autofocusing.  Im relatively new to the SL system, but have been shooting about 20,000 action photos a year for decades.  I nail near 100% with the Canon R3 (and 1DX3 as a backup.)  I tried every combination of fps, bits, focus points, etc, that I could come up with, and there wasn’t a magical solution.  I even wondered if the camera itself is a dud version.  I’d welcome any ideas to test/improve.

Note:  The SL3 is otherwise brilliant, so this is not a complaint, rather an acknowledgment that there are different tools for different types of photos.  Nonetheless, I'd like to have AFc as an option even if not for sports.

I don't have the SL2 anymore, but my experience with AF hasn't been great either. When I was shooting with the 24-90 I had on average more hits than the primes (35, 75) somehow. Thank you for sharing, unfortunately I have to look for a R3 (R1 if released)/Z9(II plz)/A9III for indoor sports.

[helged]

Ok, I picked up the Sigma 70-200 f2.8 DG DN Sport yesterday, and had just a little time today to play with this lens on SL3 before the day light faded away. Very impressed so far. The focus mechanism is really fast and accurate, and the sharpness is plentiful.

Over to some AFc-testing with our dog as model 😉, with settings

• Drive Mode -> 4 fps, 14 bit (highest fps-setting for AFc)
• Focus Mode -> AFc
• AF Mode -> 'Animals (Beta)'
• Focus Settings -> AF Setup -> AF Profiles (with Pre-focus off) -> 'Wildlife' (default parameter settings)
• Shutter speed 1/1000 to 1/1600 s
• Aperture f2.8
• Focal length mostly at 200mm
• ISO 1600 to 2000

Firstly, forget the electronic shutter for subjects in motion and/or when the camera is moved; distortions show up easily. 

Secondly, eye detection appears to be part of the 'Animals (Beta)' setting.

When the dog approaches me in slow-ish, half-running, speed, 80+ percent of a sequence of 20+ images are in focus. And SL3 manages to go back to focus after 1-2 images out of focus. This is by no means impressive compared to the top systems out there with virtually all images in focus, but it is the first time I can shoot like this with a Leica. And SL3 is certainly not meant to be an action camera.

When the dog runs towards me at full speed, the hit rate drops a little, but not by that much. One caveat, though: Let the system identify and focus on the subject (the dog in this case) before starting to shoot, otherwise most of the images might be out of focus. More testing during the weeked, hopefully.

Rather positive results. I have the impression that S5ii does AFc and tracking better, and I also think that forthcoming FF Lumix bodies will improve on AFc, fps and tracking. And it opens up an interesting avenue for SL3-S (muuuuch faster readout time from the sensor, muuuch higher fps with AFc).

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[Photoworks]

On 3/13/2024 at 9:23 AM, MGN said:

I ran the same test with my dogs & a frisbee with the same settings on the SL3 and a 90 APO at f/2.0, with only about a 5% success rate.  When the pups walked across the yard (not toward me), a majority were in focus — the BETA animal tracking put a box around them and did a fairly good job of “sticking” to them.  But not when the pups came toward me (which is the toughest tracking for cameras, I know.)  They weren’t running, but walking/prancing steadily, so there shouldn't have been any trouble autofocusing.  Im relatively new to the SL system, but have been shooting about 20,000 action photos a year for decades.  I nail near 100% with the Canon R3 (and 1DX3 as a backup.)  I tried every combination of fps, bits, focus points, etc, that I could come up with, and there wasn’t a magical solution.  I even wondered if the camera itself is a dud version.  I’d welcome any ideas to test/improve.

Note:  The SL3 is otherwise brilliant, so this is not a complaint, rather an acknowledgment that there are different tools for different types of photos.  Nonetheless, I'd like to have AFc as an option even if not for sports.

1. how do you get your model to run back to you over and over LOL

2. some videos with the Panasonic S5II suggest using an "AF profile" with higher numbers.

[tomasis7]

1. Bones exist. 

[helged]

More testing this evening... Settings as in post #10, but now with aperture f4.5. A rather peasant hit-rate of close to 90 percent, I belive.

Early days still, but it looks like a lens with (sufficiently) fast focus mechanism works quite well on SL3. SL3 is clearly not the first choice for sport shooting, bird-in-flight photography or similar‚ and 4 or 5 fps is a rather pedistrian speed rate these days, but AFc with SL3+Sigma 70-200, as well as with Sigma 85mm f1.4 and SL24-90, mostly works.

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[algrove]

Take off the booties and you might get 95-99% hit rate.😀

[Leica Filmmatic]

I have been shooting the m11 and x2d for the last 2yrs so I am sure this will feel like a Ferrari

[trickness]

I could do exactly the same thing with the SL2 if there's a single moving subject in the frame. or at least get very close to the same result. Any modern camera should be able to do the above (or better), it's nothing to be that impressed by.

The thing the SL2 is terrible at is when multiple subjects are in the frame - not only people, but things the camera thinks are people. I always switch it off and go manual when that's the case or the autofocus shudders, jumps from subject to subject, forgets what it is tracking - I'm interested to see if the SL3 is better in this regard. Early reviews says perhaps it's a little bit better, but not a lot. So it would be great if SL3 owners could post their experiences under these shooting conditions, it would be very helpful to see/read.

[helged]

15 minutes ago, trickness said:

I could do exactly the same thing with the SL2 if there's a single moving subject in the frame. or at least get very close to the same result. Any modern camera should be able to do the above (or better), it's nothing to be that impressed by.

The thing the SL2 is terrible at is when multiple subjects are in the frame - not only people, but things the camera thinks are people. I always switch it off and go manual when that's the case or the autofocus shudders, jumps from subject to subject, forgets what it is tracking - I'm interested to see if the SL3 is better in this regard. Early reviews says perhaps it's a little bit better, but not a lot. So it would be great if SL3 owners could post their experiences under these shooting conditions, it would be very helpful to see/read.

I fully agree that SL3 lags the big players when it comes to tracking, but I am glad that it (mostly) works - although at a pedstrian speed.

Based on numerous testes with SL2 and SL2-S (and S1R) over the years, none are able to reliable and continuously focus on a dog running towards you. At least not for me. SL3 mostly is, to such a degree that I let Canon R5 and some Canon RF lenses go. I also expect forthcoming L-mount bodies bodies to improve on AF tracking, satisfying my needs as a non-professional photographer.

[Manicouagan1]

Some backgrounds seem to confuse certain autofocus systems.   Only experience will tell you which situations are a problem with particular cameras and settings.    Things like the sharp high contrast divide between the snow and shadow behind the dog can be a problem in some situations.  In other situations grass with lots of high contrast detail can fool the camera.  I have run into both problems over the years.   There probably are situations where the ancient coincidence viewfinder of our M cameras works better than our computerized wonders.  

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[Photoworks]

Is the AF better on the SL3?

honestly, I can't tell, I am so used to the focus of the SL2 in AFs that I never used AFc.
 

I think they're some real improvements, especially in video mode. but in my early impression, you have to keep changing settings to see what works better, I probably have to put in the time, and I have not had it at this point.
The point is that the Sony only thing I ever changed was from single to continuous and it all worked. 
why do I need to change AF profiles for running, pets, or wildlife, just because it is not good enough for every situation?

[jayoco]

HI!  I have two questions regarding your post from March 14 where you mention the wildlife setting and that eye tracking was working in the animals.

1.  Are you able to use back button focus?

2. Is there another setting you identified that gets eye tracking up an running on animals?

Thank you and great work.