Leica SL3 AF

[Mikko Kankainen]

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19 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Haven't seen that yet.

Thats good for you! 

I uploaded a video that shows how my SL3 hunts in every af press. Same with every lens. Thats my body at least. And S5IIx does the same. I have many shots that I could upload here where eye was focused but in reality focus was in background. Also in one pharmacy photo shoot where there was led lights coming from different angles, afs was hunting and could not lock to person. Easy and simple pose, I had to change my position so that camera could lock. Really sl2 experience.

Just keep using SL2’s is my advice if you dont use this body in video. And if you dont need any other improvements. Dont update if you want better focusing camera.

Afs=SL2 performance

Afc= yeah but low res evf and 4fps max. And still misses sometimes, not Canon level.

These are my findings and I must believe what I see with my own eyes. Hope it helps somebody. I have nothing to add to this subject 🙂

Edited March 31, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

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[SrMi]

54 minutes ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

Afc= yeah but low res evf and 4fps max.

5 fps (12 bit)

[CptSlevin]

1 hour ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

Thats good for you! 

I uploaded a video that shows how my SL3 hunts in every af press. Same with every lens. Thats my body at least. And S5IIx does the same. I have many shots that I could upload here where eye was focused but in reality focus was in background. Also in one pharmacy photo shoot where there was led lights coming from different angles, afs was hunting and could not lock to person. Easy and simple pose, I had to change my position so that camera could lock. Really sl2 experience.

Just keep using SL2’s is my advice if you dont use this body in video. And if you dont need any other improvements. Dont update if you want better focusing camera.

Afs=SL2 performance

Afc= yeah but low res evf and 4fps max. And still misses sometimes, not Canon level.

These are my findings and I must believe what I see with my own eyes. Hope it helps somebody. I have nothing to add to this subject 🙂

Thank you!

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

Thats good for you! 

I uploaded a video that shows how my SL3 hunts in every af press. Same with every lens. Thats my body at least. And S5IIx does the same. I have many shots that I could upload here where eye was focused but in reality focus was in background. Also in one pharmacy photo shoot where there was led lights coming from different angles, afs was hunting and could not lock to person. Easy and simple pose, I had to change my position so that camera could lock. Really sl2 experience.

Just keep using SL2’s is my advice if you dont use this body in video. And if you dont need any other improvements. Dont update if you want better focusing camera.

Afs=SL2 performance

Afc= yeah but low res evf and 4fps max. And still misses sometimes, not Canon level.

These are my findings and I must believe what I see with my own eyes. Hope it helps somebody. I have nothing to add to this subject 🙂

Got to say at this stage I am also not seeing what you're seeing. I'm just over 3000 shots in on my SL3 and mostly in AFS. Over 12 different lenses so far (but no 2.8 Sigma zooms) with no significant issues. When I have used AFC I do notice a drop in the EVF but not one where I can't clearly see a facial expression.

I'm not doubting your findings. I also do think that the SL3 needs some real firmware work for efficiency. Maybe there's some compatibility teething issues as well with some lenses? I do have an S5II as well but haven't actually used it with many lenses except the 20-60, 70-200/4, 100 macro, 24-105 and Leica 24-90 (short test). On the SL3 I've tried all of those, all the SL lenses I have and about 6 Sigmas as well. But I don't have a 24-70 2.8 or 70-200 2.8 in my kit currently.

Sorry for the silly question. I assume all firmware is up to date for your lenses?

Gordon

[Mikko Kankainen]

Thanks Gordon and it's nice to hear it's working better for you!

I checked, all my lenses have the newest firmware as my camera. I use Sigma 14-24 in real estate, there I can see clearly small typical focus back and forth quite often.
Panasonic 50mm 1.4 was the lens that I used for those two magazine shots that I mentioned.
I use Leica 24-70 in studio.
Also tried with small and light 1.8 Pana primes that I like to use because of their weight.

And to be clear, I have no problem with focusing as I did not have any problem earlier with SL2. Focus is fast and accurate. It just hunts sometimes for me at least and my point was to prove that it uses contrast based focusing. Why I started talking at first was because I was waiting that finally I could be able to use Canon lenses but it failed because of contrast based focusing in afs.

I have taken about the same amount of photos as you have with SL3. And I also hope and I know that things will improve. For me the EVF resolution drop is enough to loose connection and not to be able to see facial expression, small details... And in event work I cannot be sure if the camera is focusing correctly in some cases (two people side by side for example) because of blurry evf.

Pulled out from memory card one shot. Eye detection and person was locked. However camera focused to background. Had to press like five times until it locked to person even it showed that it was always locked. And I saw this a lot with SL2 and I know that it's because of contrast based detection or a symphtom.

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Edited March 31, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[geronimosan]

4 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

 

Afc= yeah but low res evf and 4fps max. And still misses sometimes, not Canon level.

"Low rez"?  What resolution EVF do you need to make you happy and to be able to take pictures?

[jaapv]

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4 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

Thanks Gordon and it's nice to hear it's working better for you!

I checked, all my lenses have the newest firmware as my camera. I use Sigma 14-24 in real estate, there I can see clearly small typical focus back and forth quite often.
Panasonic 50mm 1.4 was the lens that I used for those two magazine shots that I mentioned.
I use Leica 24-70 in studio.
Also tried with small and light 1.8 Pana primes that I like to use because of their weight.

And to be clear, I have no problem with focusing as I did not have any problem earlier with SL2. Focus is fast and accurate. It just hunts sometimes for me at least and my point was to prove that it uses contrast based focusing. Why I started talking at first was because I was waiting that finally I could be able to use Canon lenses but it failed because of contrast based focusing in afs.

I have taken about the same amount of photos as you have with SL3. And I also hope and I know that things will improve. For me the EVF resolution drop is enough to loose connection and not to be able to see facial expression, small details... And in event work I cannot be sure if the camera is focusing correctly in some cases (two people side by side for example) because of blurry evf.

Pulled out from memory card one shot. Eye detection and person was locked. However camera focused to background. Had to press like five times until it locked to person even it showed that it was always locked. And I saw this a lot with SL2 and I know that it's because of contrast based detection or a symphtom.

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That is nasty... I've really not seen this; my camera always locks focus on the yellow box(es).  Might it be because I have half-shutter release set to off? That gives the camera the opportunity to lock focus before release instead of having to focus during release. I must confess that I put the release on full press because I hate the hair-trigger effect of half-press.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

Thanks Gordon and it's nice to hear it's working better for you!

I checked, all my lenses have the newest firmware as my camera. I use Sigma 14-24 in real estate, there I can see clearly small typical focus back and forth quite often.
Panasonic 50mm 1.4 was the lens that I used for those two magazine shots that I mentioned.
I use Leica 24-70 in studio.
Also tried with small and light 1.8 Pana primes that I like to use because of their weight.

And to be clear, I have no problem with focusing as I did not have any problem earlier with SL2. Focus is fast and accurate. It just hunts sometimes for me at least and my point was to prove that it uses contrast based focusing. Why I started talking at first was because I was waiting that finally I could be able to use Canon lenses but it failed because of contrast based focusing in afs.

I have taken about the same amount of photos as you have with SL3. And I also hope and I know that things will improve. For me the EVF resolution drop is enough to loose connection and not to be able to see facial expression, small details... And in event work I cannot be sure if the camera is focusing correctly in some cases (two people side by side for example) because of blurry evf.

Pulled out from memory card one shot. Eye detection and person was locked. However camera focused to background. Had to press like five times until it locked to person even it showed that it was always locked. And I saw this a lot with SL2 and I know that it's because of contrast based detection or a symphtom.

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That shot's a bit of a disaster. I had the same thing with the Canon R7 (despise that piece of junk) and occasionally on the R5. Says it's locked on and then, blahhh. Not having this on my SL3 so far.

The SL3 does use a dual AF system, like the S5II and Q3. That means you will see a little pulse occasionally for accuracy. The phase bit is at the start of the throw as phase is better with focus direction and speed and CDAF is more accurate so typically you see that at the very last second in AFS. Is that what you're seeing? The big change from the SL2 is that you don't get the large back and forth throws at the start of focus. CDAF isn't used in AFC as far as I know.

I've had no issues with the rear LCD yet but I've mostly been in overcast/rainy Vietnam. Got home just under a week ago. I hope the brightness is something they can improve in firmware. Like the AF which feels *unoptimised* to me.

I have both my Novoflex and Sigma AF adaptors but have yet to use them on the SL3. And I think the only Canon EF AF lens I still have is the 24-70 f4. Mostly it's for the TC's and I have a Sigma or two around somewhere. L mount has all the lenses I need except for TC's now.

This weeks turning into a big one but I'm going to try and do some more testing before Friday. I'll report if I see any new issues.

Have you tried the EVF in performance mode to see if that makes any difference?

Gordon

[Mikko Kankainen]

Yes there is this small focus jumps, I dont see them with Canon. I take about 100k pictures with Canon in a year so I have some kind of a feeling what that is. And my intrest is because of this dual system that I use that I could use some lenses with Leica like 135mm 2.0, 24 1.4. 

There is information to be found that AFs=contrast based and nothing more and if that is true that is very interesting imho. Leica does not answer to me, they have always answered but not this time but thats most like because they get a lot of mail because of this launch.

Now when I get this feeling that I'm the only one seeing this, maybe there is something wrong with my unit or even more possible I'm just expecting more. Like this EVF blurriness, now that I try it at home to kitchen wall it's fine with afc. However every time I tried it in paid customer work where there is some kind of "pressure", I instantly turn it off because I cannot see clearly. This is my experience nothing more. Seeing clearly with minimun lag is a must for me at least and thats why I prefer ovf's even today. Not must to take better pictures or because my work is more demanding than others, no because it's must for me. 

I did not find evf performance mode, I will have to look more. And for every Leica fanboys, I am one too, I have M11, M4 (use it all the time), SL2s, SL3  So no trolling..

[sebben]

 

@Mikko Kankainen

Having a Pro camera that you can’t rely on as a professional tool is unacceptable. Not getting support from the manufacturer/dealer is also unacceptable. 
 

I really hope you get a resolution to his soon. Please keep us posted on how Leica resolves this if they do at all. 

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, sebben said:

Having a Pro camera that you can’t rely on as a professional tool is unacceptable. Not getting support from the manufacturer/dealer is also unacceptable.

There are quite a few camera options on the market that may suffice your needs. Why bother with an unacceptable product of an unacceptable manufacturer for your professional work and not leave the struggle to the amateurs?

Edited April 1, 2024 by hansvons

[sebben]

11 minutes ago, hansvons said:

There are quite a few camera options on the market that may suffice your needs. Why bother with an unacceptable product of an unacceptable manufacturer for your professional work and not leave the struggle to the amateurs?

I think anyone that sells a professional camera system that fails in the way described would be highly criticised regardless of the branding. 

[Chaemono]

“Tree detection mode” 😂

[Photoworks]

 

16 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

And to be clear, I have no problem with focusing as I did not have any problem earlier with SL2. Focus is fast and accurate. It just hunts sometimes for me at least and my point was to prove that it uses contrast based focusing. Why I started talking at first was because I was waiting that finally I could be able to use Canon lenses but it failed because of contrast based focusing in afs.

I have taken about the same amount of photos as you have with SL3. And I also hope and I know that things will improve. For me the EVF resolution drop is enough to loose connection and not to be able to see facial expression, small details... And in event work I cannot be sure if the camera is focusing correctly in some cases (two people side by side for example) because of blurry evf.

Pulled out from memory card one shot. Eye detection and person was locked. However camera focused to background. Had to press like five times until it locked to person even it showed that it was always locked. And I saw this a lot with SL2 and I know that it's because of contrast based detection or a symphtom.

 

These are symptoms I have seen on the SL2, mostly in AFc.

The locking focus on the background which is the little section of the frame of two people in front of me. so annoying! I would have to turn the manual focus ring to get out of it.

I think the SL3 focusing is similar to SL2. The Face body detection is very good for portraits, but yesterday I was doing portraits on the street with other people around. samples 
I had a few shots where the focus would totally miss in a 4-5 shot sequence.

 

Here the box found the face, but the focus was on the hat.

 

I think The SL3 is still mostly contrast in AFs

I have seen better, performance in Video, for now, it is actually usable. I didn't find that on the SL2.

I still think that the AF needs improvements. For now, it is a black box that is happening with AF. Just like IBIS picking the sensor or lens stabilization combination. We would not talk about it if it was not the case.

 

Edited April 1, 2024 by Photoworks

[petereprice]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

 

These are symptoms I have seen on the SL2, mostly in AFc.

The locking focus on the background which is the little section of the frame of two people in front of me. so annoying! I would have to turn the manual focus ring to get out of it.

I think the SL3 focusing is similar to SL2. The Face body detection is very good for portraits, but yesterday I was doing portraits on the street with other people around. samples 
I had a few shots where the focus would totally miss in a 4-5 shot sequence.

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Here the box found the face, but the focus was on the hat.

 

I think The SL3 is still mostly contrast in AFs

I have seen better, performance in Video, for now, it is actually usable. I didn't find that on the SL2.

I still think that the AF needs improvements. For now, it is a black box that is happening with AF. Just like IBIS picking the sensor or lens stabilization combination. We would not talk about it if it was not the case.

 

What lens or lenses were you using?

[Photoworks]

Just now, petereprice said:

What lens or lenses were you using?

35 apo

[PeterBoyadjian]

Eye AF needs a little bit a tweaking, works 85% of the time. 

Firmware should fix all this. 

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[petereprice]

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

35 apo

I’ve tested a number of lenses on my SL3 and I can say that the APO lenses performed the worst as far as AF speed and accuracy.  Here’s the order of best to worst on the L mount based on my tests.

1.  Leica SL ASPH (Non APO) - Performed the best with 95% or above accuracy

2. Panasonic Lumix Primes - Mostly equal to the Leica SL ASPH primes performance.  90-95% accuracy

3.  Sigma Contemporary I Series Zooms and Primes - 90% accuracy

4. Sigma Art Primes - 80-85% accuracy

5.  Leica APO Primes - slowest and least consistent/accurate - 75-80% accuracy 

One mention not on the list is the 24-90mm Vario zoom lens.  Performed as well as the Leica SL ASPH (Non APO) primes.  It was very fast and accurate.  I have not however tried the other Leica zooms.

So I concur that some of these lenses can improve AF performance with updated firmware.  I also agree that the SL3 body will also need to improve its performance with updates.  However the Leica APO primes may be more difficult as you can feel that the motors especially for their older primes just weren’t built for fast AFC PDAF based AF.  Some maybe ok for more slower application like landscape or some portrait but I’d stay away from the APO primes for fast moving or busy scenes.  I also don’t entirely trust the subject tracking yet.  
I was definitely impressed by the overall speed and performance of the “economy” Leica Summicron SL primes as well as the Panasonic f1.8 primes.  If AF is critical for your application, I’d hover towards this primes as well as Sigma’s Contemporary Primes and zooms.

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[Chaemono]

I just watched a sports photographer on YouTube, Philipp Reinhard, who went with the SL3 to Thailand and Vietnam for a six week project. Leica has not released the video of his project, yet. He basically said, I’m paraphrasing, that the SL3-S will come without “tree detection mode.” 😂

[jrp]

Regrettably, using iAF mode, I am not seeing much of an improvement in AF performance over the SL2. The colour reproduction also needs a bit of work. If you put the Lightroom white balance eyedropper on the bright part of a cloud, you expect the rest of the pic to be balanced. It isn’t.

The tracking feature, which works as expected on a Sony, jumps around al, over the place with the SL3.

The biggest improvement over the SL2 is the ability to capture highlights without hard clipping.