S(007/3)..SL3...S4

[Sailronin]

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Perhaps I've been lucky but my S(006) seems to nail the focus right on the "+" in the viewfinder.  I don't know about it "grabbing" what ever is in the focus circle as my hits are quite high with just the "+" as below with the eye of the lizard with the 120mm Apo Macro or the dumpsters below with 70mm Summarit at f.4

 

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Edited April 5, 2024 by Sailronin

[Stuart Richardson]

I had pretty decent luck with the AF in the S series camera. Before I used them I used a Rollei 6008AF and a Sinar Hy6. Both were way behind the S in both speed and accuracy. The S4 will be in a totally different league, however, assuming it is mirrorless. I don't think expecting it to keep up with Canon or Sony is going to happen. I imagine if Leica could do it, they would. My sense is not that it is a cost cutting issue. When the S came out, Leica had some puzzled reactions to their using a screw drive based AF system when most of the 35mm market had gone to ultrasonic motors. At the time they said that they could not design the lenses they wanted to and still have them focus quickly and accurately with ultrasonic motors. The elements were too big and heavy, and it necessitated heavier duty AF mechanisms. They were slower, louder, but allowed the S lenses to be what they were, which was by far the best assemblage of medium format lenses ever made, a distinction which I think is pretty safe to say they still hold. Keep in mind that this system was being designed from about 2006-2008. They were working with the best they had at the time, I think.

[tom0511]

I also had an Hy6 before stepping into the S system (S2 at that time). I had AF issues with the Hy6 (even though I still love the results of the Rollei lenses with the Dasa sensor).

Before stepping into the S2 I tested the system for some days and AF results were fine. I was also happy with the S006.

On the other side today's mirrorless-AF systems are on another level of AF accuracy. SO it might be a combination of not totally perfect AF of the S but also becoming spoiled by mirrorless, AF accuracy.

The S007 locked AF faster, so maybe the price was some compromise in AF accuracy? I don't know as much as I don't know how much sample variation we see.

 

[Pieter12]

6 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

I also had an Hy6 before stepping into the S system (S2 at that time). I had AF issues with the Hy6 (even though I still love the results of the Rollei lenses with the Dasa sensor).

Before stepping into the S2 I tested the system for some days and AF results were fine. I was also happy with the S006.

On the other side today's mirrorless-AF systems are on another level of AF accuracy. SO it might be a combination of not totally perfect AF of the S but also becoming spoiled by mirrorless, AF accuracy.

The S007 locked AF faster, so maybe the price was some compromise in AF accuracy? I don't know as much as I don't know how much sample variation we see.

 

The Hy6 AF can be adjusted, did you try that? Also, the Mod2 AF is better than the original, and the AF can be affected by a tripod screw that puts pressure on the body (that is, the screw is too long).

I don't depend on AF 100% with the Hy6 or the S (both 006 and S3). They are not action cameras, I always make sure everything looks good in the viewfinder before tripping the shutter.

 

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[tom0511]

Thank you for the tips!

I sold the Hy6 and Sinar back when I bought the S system.

Later I bought a used Hy6 again, let it update to Vers. 2, but with a film back. I don't own a digital back for it any more.

 

[ZHNL]

9 hours ago, BernardC said:

You are comparing apples an oranges. Those great Canon pro sports cameras had less than half the resolution of the S2, and less than a third of the S3. Terms like "front focus" and "back focus" only started to be popular once the D800 came-out, and photographers noticed that their images weren't as sharp at the pixel level as they used to be. Nikon offered 1Dx equivalents at the time (D3, D4), which also rarely mis-focussed.

That was an issue with all medium format SLRs. I have read (although I can't confirm) that Pentax, Mamiya/PhaseOne, Hasselblad, and Leica (and probably Rollei) all got their AF modules from the same Japanese supplier. They were stuck with single-point AF because 35mm multi-point sensors only covered the central part of the image (so they were effectively single-point). None of the OEM suppliers could be persuaded to manufacture a dedicated medium format AF sensor; the market only amounted to a few thousand units per year, and potential customers were going through bankruptcy crises. It wasn't the right environment to invest hundreds of millions of yen into new medium format DSLR PDAF sensors.

I am with mikelevitt. I don't have canon experience but have start using Nikon Camera from D300, D700 era and continue use Nikon system to the end of era D850. DSLR don't have the same focus capability as Mirrorless in general in term of accuracy, but non of them show remotely as error prone as any of S camera I handled, period. 

Not direct you, but anyone new to S system. Do a test, shooting a well defined high contrast target at 3Meter, 10Meter, 20Meter. Take 3 image for each distance with S section you have. I did this test a while ago, none of my S glass give consistent results out of 3 images in the single distance.  This also make the DOF top lcd on S007 useless as I can't rely on them. 

I have zero complain on single focus point if it is reliable even at D700 level. It is not. It is all over the place with distance, subject, lens and body combination. This is not DSLR PDAF limitation but lack of consistence of AF module and product tolerance spec control. It is not 36M vs 24M or 12M, we are talking about MISS focus consistently. S is the one need AF fine turn than any other DSLR I handled and unfortunately it doesn't have that.    

[irenedp]

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I try, as much as I can, to focus the S system manually, either in the visor, or when I use the S3, on liveview and using the 100% zoom. The S is an excellent camera but the focus system is definitely not that of a Nikon 850. Not In the S2, not in the S3

[Pieter12]

Does anyone use a manual focus camera anymore? What did you folks do before AF? How about manual exposure? Have we all become unable to do anything for ourselves?

[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Pieter12:

Does anyone use a manual focus camera anymore? What did you folks do before AF? How about manual exposure? Have we all become unable to do anything for ourselves?

I think digital is less forgiving than film, also in film time we had 6x6 and larger viewfinder, and we are spoiled by modern AF systems. Focusing the S manual at medium and longer distances is not totally precise every time, at least with my eyes. 
 

[ZHNL]

4 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Does anyone use a manual focus camera anymore? What did you folks do before AF? How about manual exposure? Have we all become unable to do anything for ourselves?

I do full time manual focus with S. First I enjoy that kind of control, 2nd I can’t rely on S autofocus unless using 007 or S3 for LV CDAF. 
As mentioned by TOM0511, med to long distance can be very tricky. In those case, I do manual focus with 006 but check focus after each exposure. A habit with S, a hard lesson learned from field. 

[Pieter12]

1 minute ago, ZHNL said:

I do full time manual focus with S. First I enjoy that kind of control, 2nd I can’t rely on S autofocus unless using 007 or S3 for LV CDAF. 
As mentioned by TOM0511, med to long distance can be very tricky. In those case, I do manual focus with 006 but check focus after each exposure. A habit with S, a hard lesson learned from field. 

I guess I stop down enough to compensate for any slight focus error. I always check the accuracy of AF through the viewfinder. I never chimp, shoot tethered if possible when it is critical. Maybe some of the lack of sharpness that has been observed is camera movement rather than bad focus. The S and its lenses are heavy mothers, most MF cameras are best on a tripod or at least a monopod.

[ZHNL]

12 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

I guess I stop down enough to compensate for any slight focus error. I always check the accuracy of AF through the viewfinder. I never chimp, shoot tethered if possible when it is critical. Maybe some of the lack of sharpness that has been observed is camera movement rather than bad focus. The S and its lenses are heavy mothers, most MF cameras are best on a tripod or at least a monopod.

For any serious photographer or hobbyist. It shouldnt be even a discussion to mis focus error with camera shake. 
 

stop down and manual focus wide open can alleviate problem and that is mostly what I do for deep DOF type image. If you are experienced enough, you know when you need check focus, when you don’t need. For shallow DOF such as portrait or need main subject pop at 5-20M range, good luck with manual focus. 
 

in early reply, most of case, I don’t even need focus depend on focal length and DOF need to be covered as I directly using barrel location. This is very similar to M shooting. 
 

anyway, it is what it is. Truth about S AF is topic of this thread not how individuals mitigate this issue. For me, if it is a big issue, I dump S already but I didn’t  because what I care is total package for my pleasure. I use S only for certain images and cases. 

Edited April 6, 2024 by ZHNL

[Pieter12]

38 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

For any serious photographer or hobbyist. It shouldnt be even a discussion to mis focus error with camera shake. 
 

stop down and manual focus wide open can alleviate problem and that is mostly what I do for deep DOF type image. If you are experienced enough, you know when you need check focus, when you don’t need. For shallow DOF such as portrait or need main subject pop at 5-20M range, good luck with manual focus. 
 

in early reply, most of case, I don’t even need focus depend on focal length and DOF need to be covered as I directly using barrel location. This is very similar to M shooting. 
 

anyway, it is what it is. Truth about S AF is topic of this thread not how individuals mitigate this issue. For me, if it is a big issue, I dump S already but I didn’t  because what I care is total package for my pleasure. I use S only for certain images and cases. 

High resolution digital will look soft even with the most minimal amount of camera shake. And photographers have been producing excellent portraits with shallow depth of field for decades with manual focus. AF comes into play with action, sports photography, wildlife and other quick moving subjects. AF can be a hindrance for street photography, simple enough to do with zone focusing. AF can get in the way slowing down the process, focusing on the wrong subject, ruling out shooting from the hip.

[ynp]

6 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Does anyone use a manual focus camera anymore?

Is Leica-M a manual focus camera?

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, Pieter12 said:

High resolution digital will look soft even with the most minimal amount of camera shake. And photographers have been producing excellent portraits with shallow depth of field for decades with manual focus. AF comes into play with action, sports photography, wildlife and other quick moving subjects. AF can be a hindrance for street photography, simple enough to do with zone focusing. AF can get in the way slowing down the process, focusing on the wrong subject, ruling out shooting from the hip.

I know where this conversation is heading to based on your reply. It is no longer beneficial to anyone at least from my side to continue engage this discussion. It is not about if anyone need AF for their photography or it is not about anyone want to seek advise on photography or Art on Leica gear online forum. 
I will stop engage. 

[Pieter12]

“Sharpness is a bourgeois concept” --HCB

[Stuart Richardson]

I found that with my S bodies and my eyes (which are/were very good, as I was still in my 30s with sharp eyes while using the S), I found the AF unit to be more accurate than manual focus. I don't think this was lack of visual acuity, I think it was variance in the tolerance of the mirror and focusing screen. As mentioned in other threads, I had a discussion with Leica about it, and they said more or less that the tolerance for the mirror need not be perfect. I was not satisfied with that answer, but since even Leica (or at least the CA rep I was talking to and the engineer he talked to) felt like good enough was good enough, I dropped it. The AF sensor did a better job of reaching peak focus than the OVF, even if sometimes it got confused. So like ZHNL, I found that I had to double check my work in critical situations. This was one of the reasons when the SL system became so appealing. Perfect focus every single time...if it said it was in focus, it was. There were other factors of course. I think Tom is correct too that it was easier to focus when resolution was lower, film softer and lenses not so sharp. The challenge with the S is that if the focus is off, you will see it, as it is so damn sharp!

[ZHNL]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think Tom is correct too that it was easier to focus when resolution was lower, film softer and lenses not so sharp. The challenge with the S is that if the focus is off, you will see it, as it is so damn sharp!

Yes, the first time I found that my manual focus wasn’t adequate is when I put Zeiss Otus 55 and 85 on my Nikon. I was fine with either 80lux or 50lux R or ZF plan at 50. The in focus region is razor thin for OTUS, it make mis focus very obvious. 
80lux has a in focus “band” and within that band, if you slightly miss focus, it won’t be as aggressive as OTUS. The trick for portrait is always slightly front focus than back focus if you miss focus. Nikon’s PDAF focus confirmation is also have better implementation so you can alway focus from Minimum focus distance to infinity to avoid back focus. 

[irenedp]

22 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Does anyone use a manual focus camera anymore? What did you folks do before AF? How about manual exposure? Have we all become unable to do anything for ourselves?

I’m sorry I missed such a fun discussion. I use (mostly and most of the time) manual focus. But that is not the point. 

The point is that when you consider using autofocus for whatever reason, the Leica S (at least the two copies I have) is not the perfect tool. 

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[tom0511]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Stuart Richardson:

I found that with my S bodies and my eyes (which are/were very good, as I was still in my 30s with sharp eyes while using the S), I found the AF unit to be more accurate than manual focus. I don't think this was lack of visual acuity, I think it was variance in the tolerance of the mirror and focusing screen. As mentioned in other threads, I had a discussion with Leica about it, and they said more or less that the tolerance for the mirror need not be perfect. I was not satisfied with that answer, but since even Leica (or at least the CA rep I was talking to and the engineer he talked to) felt like good enough was good enough, I dropped it. The AF sensor did a better job of reaching peak focus than the OVF, even if sometimes it got confused. So like ZHNL, I found that I had to double check my work in critical situations. This was one of the reasons when the SL system became so appealing. Perfect focus every single time...if it said it was in focus, it was. There were other factors of course. I think Tom is correct too that it was easier to focus when resolution was lower, film softer and lenses not so sharp. The challenge with the S is that if the focus is off, you will see it, as it is so damn sharp!

Stuart, I also once had this problem and Leica did calibrate my camera, mirror, etc. The bodies I now own I feel the mirror is fine, but its still not easy for me to allways nail focus with manual. I now use af with back button and double check with my eyes. The longer the distance the more difficult it is.

it works somehow but its not bulletproof.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2024 by tom0511