Leica SL3: 60 MP & Phase Detection AF

[BernardC]

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13 hours ago, OleBe said:

Strange, never had any issues with my fp DNGs in Resolve. All are opening fine. Maybe the timelapse gave it a different format which caused this.

It must have been fixed in a later version of Resolve.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[sillbeers15]

After using the Leica SL to SL2 since 2015 & 2019 and four SL lenses 24-90, 90-280, 16-35 and 75 I have lost interest in Leica’s SL series due to:

1. No faster prime SL lenses other than Cron except the 50mm Lux 

2. No SL prime tele longer than 90mm focal length 

3. SL3 does not have a fast enough processor and architecture to support fast readout speed and autofocus calculations for competitively capable AFC above 5 fps which other major mirrorless camera have been delivering for some years

Unlike my M camera & lenses which I am still passionate about which I find applications for my travel & landscape photography (which AF does not add value). 

[Chaemono]

SL3-S supposedly will have faster AF.

[sillbeers15]

17 hours ago, Chaemono said:

SL3-S supposedly will have faster AF.

Manufacturer do not tell us exactly the processing power ie directly affecting the AF calculation speed, sensor read out speed and continuous shooting with full AFC & AE on each frame. 
I guess the tell tale signs are the number of AF sensors across the image sensor and the highest RAW shooting frame rate with AE & AFC.

In real world usage, the sensor read out speed and the storage media read speed will both limit how long the maximum number of frames the camera can shoot at highest burst rate before slowing or stop.

Just comparing the paper specifications is meaningless without considering the needs of actual application. ie Unless you shoot birds in flight / wildlife & sports there is no need for above. On the contrary if one has the application needs and limited by hardware capability it can be frustrating.

That said, I still find the relevance of my M10R with compact and optically beautiful M lenses for my landscape and travel photography needs.

[tom0511]

I don't have a SL3 (yet?) just a SL2S - I really love the SL-primes. They have such consistent exposure over the frame, even at wider f-stops, great micro contrast and a very 3D rendering.  And they are still reasonable small sized, except the 50 Summilux maybe.

 

[Chaemono]

The SL3 is the first time that a Leica fangirl or fanboy can be excited about the IQ of a FF Leica camera in a long time IMO:  high ISO colors, ‘push-ability’ of high resolution, high ISO files, the way it works with M lenses, and the quality of the low ISO files in combination with the high quality of Leica primes (SL and M lenses) or SL zooms. If one has been spoiled as a hobbyist with the IQ of the S3, there is less regret when one picks up the SL3 for a more compact walk-around combo IMO. 

Arguably, one could make the same case for a Q3 or an M11, but the former is a fixed lens camera and the latter lacks IBIS. 

[sebas_]

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I've sold my SL2 and Q2. The first because I want something smaller, both because of their AF performance the latter because I wanted the ability to exchange lenses.  While the SL + APOs are really great, they are a bit too heavy for my taste. I have picked up a Panasonic S5II for the meantime, waiting what a SL3 would bring (before it was announced). Panasonic S5II is a bargain compared to anything from Leica and feature-wise it delivers above its class, but it is not the same feeling, when I pick it up, and it has some other issues I don't quite understand. But with the latest firmware Panasonic really pushed the S5II(x) – as I have no access to a SL3, I can only rely on third party information form someone, who has both and he told me that the S5II's AF (since the last update) is better performing than the SL3. I had really hoped we see something better in the AF sector with the SL3. 

So I've picked up the M11-P and really love the small form factor and the M + lenses does not really draw much attention. 
What I really miss is IBIS, and I hope Leica fixes the issues with Magenta-WB on the M11's. 
I was thinking extensively if I would be better of with a SL3, but I think (for now) I won't buy one. If I am in need for another mirrorless I think I would be looking outside of Leica and/or going up to MF.  

Edited May 1, 2024 by sebas_

[sebas_]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb sebas_:

I've sold my SL2 and Q2. The first because I want something smaller, both because of their AF performance the latter because I wanted the ability to exchange lenses.  While the SL + APOs are really great, they are a bit too heavy for my taste. I have picked up a Panasonic S5II for the meantime, waiting what a SL3 would bring (before it was announced). Panasonic S5II is a bargain compared to anything from Leica and feature-wise it delivers above its class, but it is not the same feeling, when I pick it up, and it has some other issues I don't quite understand. But with the latest firmware Panasonic really pushed the S5II(x) – as I have no access to a SL3, I can only rely on third party information form someone, who has both and he told me that the S5II's AF (since the last update) is better performing than the SL3. I had really hoped we see something better in the AF sector with the SL3. 

So I've picked up the M11-P and really love the small form factor and the M + lenses does not really draw much attention. 
What I really miss is IBIS, and I hope Leica fixes the issues with Magenta-WB on the M11's. 
I was thinking extensively if I would be better of with a SL3, but I think (for now) I won't buy one. If I am in need for another mirrorless I think I would be looking outside of Leica and/or going up to MF.  

I came just across a YouTube video comparing S5II and SL3 video's AF features: 

 

[PeterBoyadjian]

AF isn't the issue that will improve with future firmware updates. The tech is there. 

Noise performance how ever is pretty bad, only reason why I will not be selling my S5II. 

Log after 2500 iso is pretty bad, 6400 is still clean on the S5II. 

SL3 basically is a studio video camera where you can control the lighting. 

But yes, S5II is a better video camera and.......probably the best deal out there. 

 

[DirkZ]

The AF of the SL3 should be at least on par with the S5II. But currently it isn't as you can see in the following video... 

https://youtu.be/T3SWxg5y_Yk?si=0aMS_swskWaCWXLV

The guy in the video gave his SL3 back because of the AF weakness when filming. 

Maybe firmware can fix it. However, I wouldn't rely on firmware improvements.

[PeterBoyadjian]

Lucky I do not need to film someone walking back and forth like a drug addict so the AF performance has been fine for me.......

The quality using the in camera profiles are beautiful, just log is just too noisy. 

I honestly think the SL3 is not using phase detect for video just yet. 

On a side note the new firmware for the S5II is incredible, let's see id they can bring some of the improvements to this sensor. 

[geronimosan]

12 hours ago, sebas_ said:

I've sold my SL2 and Q2. The first because I want something smaller, both because of their AF performance the latter because I wanted the ability to exchange lenses.  While the SL + APOs are really great, they are a bit too heavy for my taste. I have picked up a Panasonic S5II for the meantime, waiting what a SL3 would bring (before it was announced). Panasonic S5II is a bargain compared to anything from Leica and feature-wise it delivers above its class, but it is not the same feeling, when I pick it up, and it has some other issues I don't quite understand. But with the latest firmware Panasonic really pushed the S5II(x) – as I have no access to a SL3, I can only rely on third party information form someone, who has both and he told me that the S5II's AF (since the last update) is better performing than the SL3. I had really hoped we see something better in the AF sector with the SL3. 

So I've picked up the M11-P and really love the small form factor and the M + lenses does not really draw much attention. 
What I really miss is IBIS, and I hope Leica fixes the issues with Magenta-WB on the M11's. 
I was thinking extensively if I would be better of with a SL3, but I think (for now) I won't buy one. If I am in need for another mirrorless I think I would be looking outside of Leica and/or going up to MF.  

 

12 hours ago, sebas_ said:

I've sold my SL2 and Q2. The first because I want something smaller, both because of their AF performance the latter because I wanted the ability to exchange lenses.  While the SL + APOs are really great, they are a bit too heavy for my taste. I have picked up a Panasonic S5II for the meantime, waiting what a SL3 would bring (before it was announced). Panasonic S5II is a bargain compared to anything from Leica and feature-wise it delivers above its class, but it is not the same feeling, when I pick it up, and it has some other issues I don't quite understand. But with the latest firmware Panasonic really pushed the S5II(x) – as I have no access to a SL3, I can only rely on third party information form someone, who has both and he told me that the S5II's AF (since the last update) is better performing than the SL3. I had really hoped we see something better in the AF sector with the SL3. 

So I've picked up the M11-P and really love the small form factor and the M + lenses does not really draw much attention. 
What I really miss is IBIS, and I hope Leica fixes the issues with Magenta-WB on the M11's. 
I was thinking extensively if I would be better of with a SL3, but I think (for now) I won't buy one. If I am in need for another mirrorless I think I would be looking outside of Leica and/or going up to MF.  

Isn't the S5ii a 24MP camera - about a third of the resolution of the SL3?

It all depends on a photographer's needs. If you need fast AF for action, the S5ii sounds perfect, along with the SL3-S when it eventually comes out. My needs are for best IQ and cropability, so I'm fine with slightly slower AF.

[sebas_]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb geronimosan:

 

Isn't the S5ii a 24MP camera - about a third of the resolution of the SL3?

It all depends on a photographer's needs. If you need fast AF for action, the S5ii sounds perfect, along with the SL3-S when it eventually comes out. My needs are for best IQ and cropability, so I'm fine with slightly slower AF.

Yes, the S5II is a 24MP camera, which is sub €2.000. But the SL3 is about € 7.000, which is in the same realm like a Sony A1, which was released in 2021, with 50MP and supports AF/AE tracking up to 30 images/sec. 
It feels that the processor of the SL3 is just a bit too slow to handle AF or burst shooting fast enough. 
I was really thinking of buying in to the SL system again, was eagerly awaiting the SL3's announcement, but I won't. Have bought the M11-P as I really like Leica as a company and it suits my needs, but sadly have issues with it too. I am fine paying a premium for the brand, craftsmanship and Made in Germany, but I am a bit disappointed by the bugs (M11P) , which should not be there in this price segment and feature-set.

I do not expect Leica to become Sony or Nikon in term of AF, but I would have expected to match Lumix S5II's performance on launch and not maybe later or never. 
The SL3 feels a bit like what an SL2 should have been, for 2024 and current tech it just feels a bit late to the party. 
I love the design, UI and UX of the SL3 and it is only bested by Hasselblad's UI. I really enjoy their perspective correction and many other parts as image quality etc. 
It is the price-to-feature ratio, which is out of sync with the SL3 for me, but everybody to their own, lucky all cameras are really good image creation tools. 

Edited May 2, 2024 by sebas_

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, sebas_ said:

Yes, the S5II is a 24MP camera, which is sub €2.000. But the SL3 is about € 7.000, which is in the same realm like a Sony A1, which was released in 2021, with 50MP and supports AF/AE tracking up to 30 images/sec. 
It feels that the processor of the SL3 is just a bit too slow to handle AF or burst shooting fast enough. 
I was really thinking of buying in to the SL system again, was eagerly awaiting the SL3's announcement, but I won't. Have bought the M11-P as I really like Leica as a company and it suits my needs, but sadly have issues with it too. I am fine paying a premium for the brand, craftsmanship and Made in Germany, but I am a bit disappointed by the bugs (M11P) , which should not be there in this price segment and feature-set.

I do not expect Leica to become Sony or Nikon in term of AF, but I would have expected to match Lumix S5II's performance on launch and not maybe later or never. 
The SL3 feels a bit like what an SL2 should have been, for 2024 and current tech it just feels a bit late to the party. 
I love the design, UI and UX of the SL3 and it is only bested by Hasselblad's UI. I really enjoy their perspective correction and many other parts as image quality etc. 
It is the price-to-feature ratio, which is out of sync with the SL3 for me, but everybody to their own, lucky all cameras are really good image creation tools. 

Ummm, The A7R5, released YEARS after the A1 has a much faster processor and an AI processor as well. Faster than the A1 too. And the readout speed is the same and framerates are similar. It has NOTHING to do with the SL3 processor. It's the 60MP silicon used in both cameras.

The A1 has a stacked sensor. There are exactly two commercially available high resolution stacked sensors and neither is available outside their home brand (A1 and Z8/9). The Canon R5 doesn't have a faster readout speed and you don't see people lining up to whinge about that camera. Where exactly were you thinking Leica would get such a sensor, when it's not available for sale on the open market, yet? Thin air? Pentax/Ricoh, Canon, Fujifilm, Sigma, Leica, Panasonic, Olympus, Hasselblad and Phase One are all without a stacked high-resolution sensor. That's 10 brands without and two with. And those two aren't sharing.

The A1 (which I have) is not a direct competitor to the SL3. The A7R5 (which I have) is much closer. The SL3 has measurably better IQ than the A1. The files are more pliable in post. More resolution. Mind you, if you want what the A1 has then go buy an A1 and stop moaning about a slow readout sensor that was already a known quantity in SIX other currently available cameras. All with the same readout speed. Information that was leaked months ahead of the launch. Information that's freely available to anyone who looks. The SL2 is closer to the X2D than it is to the Sony A1 in purpose. The SL3 is an IQ machine, not a speed machine. If that doesn't suit, move to something else.

And before you go and pull out some flawed P2P chart to show me how much theoretical DR the A1 has, remember the A1 shoots in 12 bit to get those speeds. Less DR. Less colour information. More speed.

Yes, the SL3 has basically beta software for AF. And it should have been better at release. It is what it is. You either accept that or purchase something else. At the same time just because it's 7K does not mean it has to have class leading or even mediocre AF. Where was that written in stone? The Leica USA release video clearly mentioned IQ, build quality and UI as the three cornerstones of the SL3. Not AF. Not shooting speeds. Not sports or birds in flight. It has not ever been marketed as a sports camera. If that's what you thought, you were buying you didn't research carefully enough.

IMHO the stuff in this thread is just Leica bashing for bashings sake. Or buyer's remorse. The SL3 has issues. Real issues. But this isn't one of them. And it will get better. They've already said so. Plus, people who actually need what and A1 or Z8 can do just went and bought one. The rest just don't have the skills to shoot sharp pictures of their screaming grandkids at the park.

It's like saying your Rolex isn't telling the time as accurately as a Swatch. Buy the Swatch and move on.

Gordon

[Markey]

"Yes, the SL3 has basically beta software for AF. And it should have been better at release".

I think that seems to be the complaint from reading the comments.

 When I researched before buying my SL2s (yes I did research) I could find little about the AF although the marketing suggested that it was up to speed .

I recall some promo piece with some chap photographing vintage racing cars at night which suggested that it was capable of sports work and in low light too..

All I wanted to do was photograph equestrian subjects .... hardly that fast.

Of course I had little idea of the possible effect of what  system based around contrast detect would have in prevailing flat light of a northern winter.

My final  conclusion was that it must be up to the current industry norms .

Done now and I accept that it is what it is and work around it but I wish that it wasn`t and would think twice before buying another.

Its made me appreciate my manual glass more. 

[sebas_]

Yes, @Markey. That sums it pretty much up.

I was not talking about needing high frame rates, I was talking about AF in regard to high framerate. A7R5 and Canon R5 run circles around SL3's AF performance. I would not mind that either, but releasing the SL3 with, "basically beta software for AF" and the video AF without any improvement is what I am critique. Would the SL3 have been released with the same AF performance as the S5II after the recent update, it would be great and a big step in the right direction. 

I think the main complain is that they ship cameras with half baked firmware ("basically beta software for AF") and that is something I do not expect from a premium company.  And no it is not bashing Leica for bashings sake, I think it should be still possible to critique rationally on something, without triggering emotions.
 

[jaapv]

Even before the recent update, useful as it is. The lens, however, plays a decisive role as well I recently bought the Sigma 70-200 and it the AF is significantly faster and more stable than my other L lenses. 

[Markey]

2 minutes ago, sebas_ said:

Yes, @Markey. That sums it pretty much up.

I was not talking about needing high frame rates, I was talking about AF in regard to high framerate. A7R5 and Canon R5 run circles around SL3's AF performance. I would not mind that either, but releasing the SL3 with, "basically beta software for AF" and the video AF without any improvement is what I am critique. Would the SL3 have been released with the same AF performance as the S5II after the recent update, it would be great and a big step in the right direction. 

I think the main complain is that they ship cameras with half baked firmware ("basically beta software for AF") and that is something I do not expect from a premium company.  And no it is not bashing Leica for bashings sake, I think it should be still possible to critique rationally on something, without triggering emotions.
 

Yes it does seem an odd choice to release a product in that way.

There might be a reason but still.

I`ve been shooting Leica for probably over 30 years and using Leica Binos before that .

Love the brand which was another reason I was disappointed I guess.

I would trade my 2s in but its had a huge knock which has impacted the custom button.

The advice was that it would be an expensive repair and I`d probably not get it back any time soon. 

 

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[Simone_DF]

Unfortunately it has become the norm to release half-baked products with a flaky software base. Ship now, update later is the new mantra. That and cuts in QA processes have been the new standard for products released in the last 10 years, not just limited to cameras. It saves companies a lot of cash. That is, until shit happens, or you have cameras that freeze like the M11 at launch, or a complete disaster like the Humane Pin.

My rule of thumb for the past few years has been to ignore any new product until at least 1 year after launch.     

[Simone_DF]

37 minutes ago, Markey said:

There might be a reason but still.

The reason:

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