The Leica SL3 - A Review by Jonathan Slack

[hdmesa]

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2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

As I wrote, M11's shutter is an outlier as its shutter was not designed for live view.

It's an outlier for the loudness of the shutter, yes. But as I said, the issue with mechanical shutters in general versus EFCS is the length of the shutter operation, which is longer than that of EFCS. It's been a noticeable difference on all the mirrorless cameras I've used. EFCS is also the default shutter mode for Canon (and maybe others, can't remember), so many users may never experience the mechanical shutter.

[trickness]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There Gordon

your response sounds exactly like everyone's 6 months ago in the test forum after an hour with the camera (with much more grumpiness about the video). Almost all the people were professional and very engaged. Some of your points are good (you'll have seen that I'm not happy with all of it). but quite a lot of them are just a function of the fact that you haven't got used to it yet.

Your point about the quick menu is a case in point - 8 icons makes it much easier to manage than the 12 in the SL2, but the fact that you can tailor what's there and save it to different user presets for different situations works really well . . . . when you've got used to it.

Be grumpy by all means (I'm quite grumpy too) - but your remarks about the testers are a bit uncalled for - I worked with these guys and they WERE impartial, diversely experienced and professional.

all the best

Jono - as an SL2 user I'll just chime in here and say that 3 months later we're still waiting for firmware update promised by Leica that would reinstate joystick functionality for zoom (which they removed in the December firmware update) - the product manager replied to my email and said that they basically were surprised that people were so unhappy about the removal of this feature, and that moving this to a front function button was an "improvement".

11 pages of complaints and counting about this firmware "upgrade" and I too have my doubts about whether the folks who approve this firmware actually ever use the camera/s in the real world. No disrespect meant here, but I do think that perhaps Leica exists in its own echo chamber - the DP Review video about the SL3 was polite but brutal. If long term users of this system can't grok it, and people like DP Review point out significant flaws compared to competitive products, one has to think a little more time spent getting it right before release would have been a good idea. 

I for one don't get why this camera leans so much into video (including that awful socket on the side peak of the body) when the rolling shutter and other issues make this a highly compromised and expensive choice for video to begin with. 

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, trickness said:

Jono - as an SL2 user I'll just chime in here and say that 3 months later we're still waiting for firmware update promised by Leica that would reinstate joystick functionality for zoom (which they removed in the December firmware update) - the product manager replied to my email and said that they basically were surprised that people were so unhappy about the removal of this feature, and that moving this to a front function button was an "improvement".

11 pages of complaints and counting about this firmware "upgrade" and I too have my doubts about whether the folks who approve this firmware actually ever use the camera/s in the real world. No disrespect meant here, but I do think that perhaps Leica exists in its own echo chamber - the DP Review video about the SL3 was polite but brutal. If long term users of this system can't grok it, and people like DP Review point out significant flaws compared to competitive products, one has to think a little more time spent getting it right before release would have been a good idea. 

I for one don't get why this camera leans so much into video (including that awful socket on the side peak of the body) when the rolling shutter and other issues make this a highly compromised and expensive choice for video to begin with. 

"No disrespect" but "I too have my doubts about whether the folks who approve this firmware actually ever use the camera/s in the real world"? That sounds like disrespect to anyone who takes a different view to you.

Here's one person who uses the SL2-S in the real world who is delighted with the move of the zoom function to the dial. No longer do I have to switch finger from joystick to dial if I want to change the zoom magnification. No longer do I have to remember where the focus point is before zooming in: I can see where it goes as it zooms from low mag to high mag. If they go back, then I hope they make it only an option.

[jonoslack]

1 minute ago, trickness said:

Jono - as an SL2 user I'll just chime in here and say that 3 months later we're still waiting for firmware update promised by Leica that would reinstate joystick functionality for zoom (which they removed in the December firmware update) - the product manager replied to my email and said that they basically were surprised that people were so unhappy about the removal of this feature, and that moving this to a front function button was an "improvement".

11 pages of complaints and counting about this firmware "upgrade" and I too have my doubts about whether the folks who approve this firmware actually ever use the camera/s in the real world. No disrespect meant here, but I do think that perhaps Leica exists in its own echo chamber - the DP Review video about the SL3 was polite but brutal. If long term users of this system can't grok it, and people like DP Review point out significant flaws compared to competitive products, one has to think a little more time spent getting it right before release would have been a good idea. 

I for one don't get why this camera leans so much into video (including that awful socket on the side peak of the body) when the rolling shutter and other issues make this a highly compromised and expensive choice for video to begin with. 

Hi There

I couldn't agree more - everything you say - including about the zoom on the joystick on the SL2. I was only vaguely aware of it (I've been using the SL3 since then). But I'm horrified and I'll get on the case with it as well.

I also think that there are some mistakes (why imply it's videocentric with that rolling shutter - quite agree) - all of which were thoroughly picked up on and pointed out during the beta testing phase, but of course Leica decide what is implemented and what isn't . . . My complaint was that Gordon said that Leica should get some impartial, diversely experienced and professional testers - ie he's blaming the testers not Leica for the things he doesn't like. I could be the exception, but the rest of the testers were unquestionably impartial, diversely experienced and professional, and professionals come to that - and they didn't pull their punches either. . . . and we all put a great deal of work into trying to get the firmware to the right point before the launch. 

All the best

Jono

 

[wceide]

I agree about the joystick issue…i am expecting a fw fix very soon

 

[trickness]

13 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

"No disrespect" but "I too have my doubts about whether the folks who approve this firmware actually ever use the camera/s in the real world"? That sounds like disrespect to anyone who takes a different view to you.

Here's one person who uses the SL2-S in the real world who is delighted with the move of the zoom function to the dial. No longer do I have to switch finger from joystick to dial if I want to change the zoom magnification. No longer do I have to remember where the focus point is before zooming in: I can see where it goes as it zooms from low mag to high mag. If they go back, then I hope they make it only an option.

There's an 11 page thread of complaints about the removal of the functionality and this firmware here on the site and I had a personal interaction with Steffan Rau in December (which I posted in said thread) where he acknowledged complaints and said it was surprising and that It would be fixed shortly (with an option to do it the old way or new way.) And it is not yet fixed.

This was a core feature of the SL series since launch and really, a change which nobody asked for, and which was not outlined properly in the firmware notes, so people updated their firmware only to find this function which many of us had developed muscle memory for over like 6 years was suddenly gone, and you couldn't downgrade to the older firmware. 

So glad you're happy with it, feel free to go an post a note to the dozens of other people who have been complaining about this "upgrade" since December in the firmware 6.0 thread and tell them how great you think it is.

 

Edited March 8, 2024 by trickness

[Carrot]

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Changes to firmware should only ever be to enhance functionality, they should never remove it. By all means give users more options for using function buttons, but never remove them. 

[LocalHero1953]

38 minutes ago, trickness said:

So glad you're happy with it, feel free to go an post a note to the dozens of other people who have been complaining about this "upgrade" since December in the firmware 6.0 thread and tell them how great you think it is.

I guess you didn't notice - I did at the time. I see no need to repeat my opinion - until someone implies that I and others have not used the camera in the real world, intending no disrespect..........

I don't doubt there are others who prefer the original way. Those who are happy about it, or learning the technique for the first time, are less likely to post.

Edited March 8, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Chris Nebard]

39 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There

I couldn't agree more - everything you say - including about the zoom on the joystick on the SL2. I was only vaguely aware of it (I've been using the SL3 since then). But I'm horrified and I'll get on the case with it as well.

I also think that there are some mistakes (why imply it's videocentric with that rolling shutter - quite agree) - all of which were thoroughly picked up on and pointed out during the beta testing phase, but of course Leica decide what is implemented and what isn't . . . My complaint was that Gordon said that Leica should get some impartial, diversely experienced and professional testers - ie he's blaming the testers not Leica for the things he doesn't like. I could be the exception, but the rest of the testers were unquestionably impartial, diversely experienced and professional, and professionals come to that - and they didn't pull their punches either. . . . and we all put a great deal of work into trying to get the firmware to the right point before the launch. 

All the best

Jono

 

Thank you Jono,

if you were to “get on the case with it as well” it could only help. I have to agree with trickness (and many, many others) on the joystick m/f issue. LocalHero is correct that the rear wheel has the stepped zoom function as an alternative - in fact it always did have - but, as he also acknowledges on the Firmware 6.0 thread, the zoom function for m/f lenses via the joystick should have been retained. The fact that the SL3 has kept it speaks volumes, as does an 11 page thread largely complaining about its removal from the SL2-s / SL2.  I didn’t upgrade to firmware 6.0 entirely because of the removal of the function - and I won’t until the promised upgrade reinstates it. 
Anyway, apologies if this is steering a thread about the SL3 into other territory.

Cheers,

Chris.

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There Gordon

your response sounds exactly like everyone's 6 months ago in the test forum after an hour with the camera (with much more grumpiness about the video). Almost all the people were professional and very engaged. Some of your points are good (you'll have seen that I'm not happy with all of it). but quite a lot of them are just a function of the fact that you haven't got used to it yet.

Your point about the quick menu is a case in point - 8 icons makes it much easier to manage than the 12 in the SL2, but the fact that you can tailor what's there and save it to different user presets for different situations works really well . . . . when you've got used to it.

Be grumpy by all means (I'm quite grumpy too) - but your remarks about the testers are a bit uncalled for - I worked with these guys and they WERE impartial, diversely experienced and professional.

all the best

Hi Jono,

Please note my comment wasn't directed at the testers. It was at Leica. *Leica need to get the camera into the hands of a more diverse group of testers* was the comment. I should have added *and listen to them*.

I like the new quick menu. But only 11 options??

Gordon

[Sunus Leica]

20 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Reading the comments in this thread I realise there are people who have issues with things that I didn't realise could be a problem, let alone a significant problem. As it is late at night, all I can do is sit back with my whisky and pay tribute to the endless variety of human nature.

It also seems to be the current trend to comment negatively about things not yet personally experienced.  I think Leica deserves a lot of credit aiming for a good, satisfying user experience and not pander to menu bloat that plages so many other manufactures.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

Shutter shock elimination is the main benefit of EFCS. There is also a reduced shutter lag. What else?

A change in the sound of and possible reduction in volume of the shutter sound. High on the like of an old wedding shooter like me.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 hours ago, MarkP said:

Thanks for this Gordon.

I've successfully been de-gassed. 

Will hold on to my SL2 and money (for now). 

🙂

Keep that card handy. There's a fantastic camera hiding in there.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, Photoworks said:

in between shots, you can push the power button once and it will go to sleep. when you pick up the camera just push the shutter and it is on again

That doesn't work for me. I almost always have a camera over my shoulder and I'll just keep waking the damn thing up as I bump the shutter button. I know because it's exactly the same as what happens now on my X2D's

Gordon

[pf4eva]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

I used to have an S1R, and now I have a G9 II. SL3 is nothing like a Lumix camera.

I have SL, SL2 and had s1R and S5II, yes body is different. That's why i'm saying it is in a different skin. It would be interesting to see a teardown, but I wouldn't be surprised that half of components there will be the same as in upcoming lumix. SL series is less and less "Leica" with every generation IMHO.

 

[padam]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

Shutter shock elimination is the main benefit of EFCS. There is also a reduced shutter lag. What else?

Much quieter.
Plus, there is another added bonus: recent cameras with both EFCS and mechanical shutter mode can close down the shutter to protect the sensor from dust. Just another one of those highly useful features on mirrorless cameras, which one would only know of outside the Leica world...

Edited March 8, 2024 by padam

[lencap]

It seems to me that designing any camera today requires trade offs, often based upon marketing, technology and budget.

When the iPhone first arrived it offered a combination still/video camera with somewhat limited features, but the convenience of always being in your pocket, ready to capture the “Kodak moment”.  Over the years it grew into an integrated ecosystem, able to send output wirelessly to social media, cloud storage and more nearly instantly with a learning curve that took very little time.  It continues to evolve with more features, higher quality, and relatively modest cost, especially so since it’s also a “Swiss Army knife”, offering access to apps, music, internet and nearly anything else.

Now imagine you’re a Japanese camera company.  Your worldwide production allows your development/production budget to spread costs over a very large product range.  You have the “luxury” of making a product mistake (design/features/cost.etc) yet still recover with future product improvements, especially so with reasonably quick product cycle updates.  You also have extensive resources to improve over time.  That, to me, helps explain Canon/Nikon products.  They are (were) the gorillas in the market and when the iPhone disruption became too much to ignore they tried to address it.  They still face challenges, but from their viewpoint there is time still to adapt.  Other manufacturers have different solutions, and clearly some of them will not survive, at least in their present form.

Now you’re Leica.  Your history is unmatched, and even today the rangefinder system remains unique and highly desired.  But, you also realize that the pace of technological change has sped up far beyond your ability to remain complacent.  You have limited resources, and you fear that AI image processing is a serious threat to your long term profitability and existence.  What do you do?  And from that perspective teaming up with Panasonic, building the L mount alliance seems like  great idea.  Pool resources from several manufacturers, spread costs, pool talent, and buy time to figure it out.

Unfortunately product cycles compressed, new competitor models force rapid model introductions, and you find that some products have to be eliminated to focus on where you think the market will go.  The less than full frame sensor cameras are closed down, the S line of high end photography seems like an endangered species in need of a rethink, and you’ve moved your core rangefinder product into a price segment clearly targeting luxury good buyers.  All of that seems reasonable, but there is less room for error.

So, perhaps also logically, you develop another platform (SL) and try to make it an iPhone in functional perspective.  I’m not talking about specific features, but in future flexibility.  Apple added lots of revenue streams to the iPhone, including an outstandingly flexible platform that incorporates third party products and low development costs.  But Apple has a Three trillion dollar market capitalization to further develop future revenue.  Leica’s revenue is several magnitudes smaller in every way.

And maybe that’s why not everyone appears happy with Leica’s more recent products.  If your main suppliers are offering 60MP sensors, and you are reliant on them to provide these items for your products, tou figure out a way to make lemonade out of lemons.  With one sensor you now have still photography, video and with pixel binning and AI camera/lens corrections you at least buy time to stay in the game nd move ahead.  

You update firmware to keep brand loyalty (I’m still amazed at the long run of firmware updates from the SL601 to the new SL3), but the key to staying alive is adapting.innovating in a game where you don’t have the luxury of time or resources to survive a string of bad decisions, most of which are likely beyond your ability to control in an industry undergoing “disruption” as we’ve all experienced in almost all fields.

So, I applaud Leica for doing what it deems it must to adapt and grow,  but I realize it won’t be a smooth road, and many decisions will appear silly (like not having incorporated a robust digital image artist protection process), or having lower capacity batteries due to the demands or more powerful electronics, but you hope your user base understands.  I’m more hopeful than confident that Leica will figure it out, but I have my doubts.  Being on the luxury side of products is the right place to be, and they seem to be aware that change is inevitable.  Look at their management changes:  Matthias Harsch as CEO in 2017, the former CEO of a company that he restructured in the face of competition and changing markets, and Michael Grimm, a new Chief Financial officer in 2022 with experience in the private equity world.

Leica is now owned by two large groups: Blackstone owns 45%, and ACM Projektentwicklung owns 55%.  These are essentially investment firms, managing for the bottom line, with known histories of being non-emotional investors.  They are certainly aware of brand value and the “cachet” of the brand, but they are also not likely to be sentimental about the business.  The doubled down on rangefinders with the 2022 M6 film revival, and will likely explore other low competition high margin products, but if profits don’t reach expectations there will likely be changes ahead, not all of which may be welcome.

So, perhaps the SL3 would have benefited from further development and refinement before being released, but the markets expected change now, and delaying was likely more risky than fixing shortcomings with future updates.  After all, Elon Musk showed the wat during Tesla’s teething pains years ago - be beat or be best, but either way keep moving ahead.  I suspect the new on/off switch will soon incorporate more features, perhaps some type of subscription service linked into the more robust Leica App and other revenue enhancing strategies designed with high margins, scalability, and the flexibility to appeal to a wide array of users.

[SrMi]

18 minutes ago, pf4eva said:

I have SL, SL2 and had s1R and S5II, yes body is different. That's why i'm saying it is in a different skin. It would be interesting to see a teardown, but I wouldn't be surprised that half of components there will be the same as in upcoming lumix. SL series is less and less "Leica" with every generation IMHO.

The ergonomics is obviously different as is the firmware. The sensor toppings have always been different. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

I found Gordon's one-day "review" unnecessarily angry and unhelpful. That is atypical for his posts.

I'm not angry. Blunt, maybe. But not angry. Of course, if people want to read angry into any of my comments, who am I to stop them. I just see what I see. And I know some of the testers. I'm not commenting on the ones they have. Leica do need to have more diversity in their testing. They do. Re-reading the *testers comment* I see how it could be interpreted differently but it was and is firmly directed at Leica, not them. I've been through this before with Leica. When the SL (601) was delivered and didn't actually fire in TTL with a current Leica flash. How does that get through? Because most Leica pros didn't use flash daily then. The 24-90 that back focused at certain distances. Because the community was still adapting M lenses. I should have said Leica needs to listen more.

I'm tired though. Tired of camera companies releasing gear with beta software. Tired of (and I'll make it very clear that Jono isn't one of these) a dozen fluff YouTube reviews that scoot over these issues because they're scared Leica won't send them any more cameras. Tired of cameras getting into the hands of fluff *influencers* who basically just re-read the press release, without using the damn thing. Experts who actually know sweet F.A. about gear in the real world.

Leica could have released a list of what's coming and I might have been nicer. What they said was, "Look at us. We made a font!!"

I like Leica gear. I own more of it than (I'd bet a fiver) than anyone else in this forum. I've shot it for work and for play. Right now I have 2 x SLs, 2 x SL2's and an SL3. 8 M bodies and god knows how much other stuff in the other systems (CL, TL, S, Digilux....). And I paid for every stick of it. But if anyone thinks I'm just giving a hall pass to Leica because I like the gear they're in for a rude shock. And they don't get, at Leica, that when they release beta cameras they get hammered. And we the *faithful* have to put up with 4 more years of dentist jokes.

Let me be clear. I like the SL3. I already PAID my money. I'll have my say. You'll note I had more positives than negatives. And the SL3 will be a great camera. I think it really will. But it 'aint there yet. And Leica could have released it with MANY of it's issues sorted. But they didn't. And it's not good enough. We, the customers who front up the cash and support the brand, deserve better.

Gordon

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[steveBK]

45 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

That doesn't work for me. I almost always have a camera over my shoulder and I'll just keep waking the damn thing up as I bump the shutter button. I know because it's exactly the same as what happens now on my X2D's

Gordon

How would you compare SL3 vs X2D for high resolution mirrorless landscape/portrait and a bit of street/travel kit?  (ie - no birding/sports)