SL3 vs SL2...

[Sohail]

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18 minutes ago, trickness said:

These differences/improvements in dynamic range and noise and color with every new camera that comes out are in reality quite fractional, relative to the improvements that the individual photographer can make just by knowing how to use their tools properly. But many of these reviewers/influencers won’t say that, because it doesn’t generate clicks, views, or repeat invites to Wetzlar for launch events.

I do think Jono and Sean Reid do essentially say this fairly frequently when reviewing new products. I’m not trying to be contrary just to be contrary; I’m hoping somebody on the market for a body that comes here and reads this understands that these differences are not as sweeping and dynamic as the marketing propaganda would have one believe.

SL2 color is quite good. No issues/complaints/problems with it over 40,000 images shot.

I'd actually go a step further. The point of sufficiency was probably reached over a decade ago. If you're shooting with a digital camera that's 10 years old (full frame), it's more than sufficient to produce stellar world-class images.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Photoworks:

aren't you reading too much into the marketing material?

If you open a file in LrC, the current version, the color details are much better than the same file on Lightroom from a few years ago. Same DNG, yes processing improves.

No, it's not. The reds are off with the SL2-S. 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb tom0511:

I just shot three family members with three cameras (S3, SL2-S and M11 (I don't own a SL3), looked at them in LR with adobe as well as cobalt profiles (for the M11 and SL2-S).

I also shot some red stuff (coke-bottle for example). I then looked at skin color and red color. Guess what...Overall the S3 seemed the most consistent/pleasing skin color for my taste, always being fine, but in one of the three faces I slightly preferred the skin color from SL2-S with cobalt and in another that from the M11.

Too many variables

vor 1 Stunde schrieb tom0511:

I can't post images because the "models" (family members) don't want to. The change of profiles seemed to have more influence on the skin and red color than which camera I choose. There has been a tendency the S3 to overall look most natural, and yes, maybe the M11 slightly stronger red if you choose the same type of profile.

These models don't mind. This is a late lunch in about one hour with the Adobe Color profile. This is not the color of the tomatoes that are right in front of me. They are a bit more orange than this deep red and the SL3 would capture their red color correctly, if you looked at Sean Reid's Studio tests. He uses the same lens and controls for WB and light. The SL, the SL2, the SL2-S with the Adobe Color profile show the exact same red in Reid Reviews like the one below, the SL3 doesn't.

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[Photoworks]

10 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

No, it's not. The reds are off with the SL2-S. 

Too many variables

These models don't mind. This is a late lunch in about one hour with the Adobe Color profile. This is not the color of the tomatoes that are right in front of me. They are a bit more orange than this deep red and the SL3 would capture their red color correctly, if you looked at Sean Reid's Studio tests. He uses the same lens and controls for WB and light. The SL, the SL2, the SL2-S with the Adobe Color profile show the exact same red in Reid Reviews like the one below, the SL3 doesn't.

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this looks like adobe colors! 🤦‍♀️

[Chaemono]

This is the correct color of the tomatoes. One could say, all it took was moving the red color slider by +20 to the right. Perhaps in this one there are no other colors to mess up. I prefer if the colors are shown correctly to begin with. I suspect the blue channel is also better in the SL3 than in the previous SL cameras.

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[Chaemono]

Gerade eben schrieb Photoworks:

this looks like adobe colors! 🤦‍♀️

Not with the SL3, the reds look like the one in #82.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

In the history of photography, it’s extremely rare that any of the images that are considered to have great artistic merit did not have any “post processing”.

This whole “it’s gotta be great straight out of the camera with no processing” thing is akin to a point and shoot mentality. Whether we are talking about classic darkroom processing or working on the computer, what comes out of the camera is just a starting point. And there isn’t a single camera on the planet that is going to spit something out that matches my exact creative vision - and if there ever were to be such a camera, perhaps powered by AI, I wouldn’t buy it because it would just be a tool for lazy photography.

These differences/improvements in dynamic range and noise and color with every new camera that comes out are in reality quite fractional, relative to the improvements that the individual photographer can make just by knowing how to use their tools properly. But many of these reviewers/influencers won’t say that, because it doesn’t generate clicks, views, or repeat invites to Wetzlar for launch events.

I do think Jono and Sean Reid do essentially say this fairly frequently when reviewing new products. I’m not trying to be contrary just to be contrary; I’m hoping somebody on the market for a body that comes here and reads this understands that these differences are not as sweeping and dynamic as the marketing propaganda would have one believe.

SL2 color is quite good. No issues/complaints/problems with it over 40,000 images shot.

https://www.magnumphotos.com/shop/darkroom-prints/
 

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[trickness]

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1 minute ago, Photoworks said:

https://www.magnumphotos.com/shop/darkroom-prints/
 

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BINGO! So much bingo. I was actually going to post this link too. 

[tom0511]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Chaemono:

No, it's not. The reds are off with the SL2-S. 

Too many variables....

 

Too many variables for a scientific comparison maybe, but many scientific comparisons include too few variables. 

I like Reid reviews but shooting a combo of fruits in artificial light can give some hints but not more IMO. That's how I read it.

I believe the adobe profiles are often just far from perfect. It is the same for the Canon R3, where adobe standard profile does not deliver great results.

At least I would not judge a camera sensor based just on LR and adobe color profile.

Then we have the discussion between "correct" and "pleasing".

But I don't doubt the SL3 to have made some steps forward in regards of the sensor.

 

[Photoworks]

19 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Not with the SL3, the reds look like the one in #82.

you can tell me what is what? USED camera SL2 and SL3

#1

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#2

#3

#4

#5 

6#

 

[SrMi]

33 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

https://www.magnumphotos.com/shop/darkroom-prints/
 

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Not surprisingly, those are black and whites, and we are talking about color adjustments. I assume that most film color photographers pick the film that has colors that work for them, and do very little color processing in the darkroom.

While I did regularly dodge & burn of my B&W prints, I quickly abondoned color in darkroom.

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Photoworks:

you can tell me what is what? USED camera SL2 and SL3

#1

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#2

#3

#4

#5 

6#

 

They are all overexposed.

[Photoworks]

2 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

They are all overexposed.

If that is all you can see! genius! 
why would you need an SL3. 🤪

[SrMi]

30 minutes ago, trickness said:

In the history of photography, it’s extremely rare that any of the images that are considered to have great artistic merit did not have any “post processing”.

This whole “it’s gotta be great straight out of the camera with no processing” thing is akin to a point and shoot mentality.

I have not implied that there should be no post-processing. We are discussing how trivial it is to adjust colors. I find it challenging to use LrC's Color Grading, Color Mixer, and Calibration sliders to get the colors I like. I do try carefully, but I still have a lot to learn.

Dodge and Burn are trivial to apply once I understand what needs to be done.

[Olaf_ZG]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

This is the correct color of the tomatoes. One could say, all it took was moving the red color slider by +20 to the right. Perhaps in this one there are no other colors to mess up. I prefer if the colors are shown correctly to begin with. I suspect the blue channel is also better in the SL3 than in the previous SL cameras.

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This can’t be the right look. Some mozzarella and olive oil is missing… 

[LBJ2]

58 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

you can tell me what is what? USED camera SL2 and SL3

Thank you for putting in the effort and posting this comparison. The over exposure on the colors chart top right, makes it difficult to discern any nuance there. But I do see some differences in the lower right color chart. * I wouldn't know which is which anyway, but there are differences. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by LBJ2

[trickness]

25 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I have not implied that there should be no post-processing. We are discussing how trivial it is to adjust colors. I find it challenging to use LrC's Color Grading, Color Mixer, and Calibration sliders to get the colors I like. I do try carefully, but I still have a lot to learn.

Dodge and Burn are trivial to apply once I understand what needs to be done.

Which brings us back to my comment about the photographer knowing how to use their tools being of far greater consequence than a new sensor, and that applies to both color and black-and-white.

[tom0511]

WHat I found overall that images from the larger sensors like the X2d or S007 or S3 (or others probably as well) are easier and faster to get to the point I. like in post than smaller ones. What I really liked about Hassy, and the same should be valid for Phase 1, that you get Sensor/Camera and converter/profile from the same brand, so it should work perfectly together.

But anyways, I think its off topic from the question about switching from SL2 to SL3 or not.

Edited March 30, 2024 by tom0511

[Photoworks]

24 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Thank you for putting in the effort and posting this comparison. The over exposure on the colors chart top right, makes it difficult to discern any nuance there. But I do see some differences in the lower right color chart. * I wouldn't know which is which anyway, but there are differences. 

#1 SL3 Adobe

#2 SL2 C1P

#3 SL2 Camera-JPG

#4 SL3 C1p

#5 SL2 Adobe

#6 SL3  camera -JPG

 

the images are only one from SL3 and 1 from SL2, out of camera, adobe colors no correction, C1P no correction 

https://photos.alexkroke.com/LEICA/Leica-SL3/Color/n-H8b5XD

 

[Chaemono]

I was going to do side by sides with the SL2-S for color today but the roads were jammed due to the traditional Easter peace marches in Germany and I couldn’t get to the parking lot. I have two APO 50 Summicron-SL lenses so I don’t have to swap lenses. Eventually, I will post DNGs with both cameras but most likely with a borrowed SL3. I’m not planning to get it until I see the files, the colors, and how easy it would be for me to emulate the colors with the SL2-S. If it’s just a matter of moving the red color slider in LR by +20 to the right with the SL2-S files, then it’s not worth it, but I suspect the SL3 also has a better blue channel. The oranges, the yellows are less red-ish, too. To my eyes, the SL3 shows a more natural presentation of colors and tones in those fruit/veggie shots by Sean Reid.

@tom0511Totally agree. In a way, MF is better for hobbyists who don’t want to spend too much time in post or who don’t know how to make their own color profiles. 

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[LBJ2]

4 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

#1 SL3 Adobe

#2 SL2 C1P

#3 SL2 Camera-JPG

#4 SL3 C1p

#5 SL2 Adobe

#6 SL3  camera -JPG

 

the images are only one from SL3 and 1 from SL2, out of camera, adobe colors no correction, C1P no correction 

https://photos.alexkroke.com/LEICA/Leica-SL3/Color/n-H8b5XD

 

Interesting approach. JPG vs Adobe vs C1 and SL3 vs SL2. Cool!