Q3 Monochrom ...Yes / NO

[SrMi]

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8 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I didn’t think the PDAF array was customisable. PDAF sensors are built into the wafer, not the coatings AFAIK. Sony SC lists 3 versions of the IMX 455. Only one of the colour sensors has PDAF. The mono version doesn’t. They state the sensor can not be customised. So unless Leica was purchasing a fully bespoke 61.2MP sensor and not the IMX455 they can’t modify it to shoot with PDAF.

Gordon

PDAF sensors are not built into the wafer, which is why 100MP sensors in X2D and GFX have a different number of OSPDAF rows. 

OSPDAF works by splitting the incoming light into two separate beams that are sent to two photodiodes. Photodiodes are part of the wafer. Any photodiode can act as a PDAF pixel. Splitting of incoming light occurs with microlenses. Microlenses are a part of the customizable layer. I believe that both the CFA and the microlenses for Sony sensors provided to Fuji, Hasselblad, and Leica can be customized.

[jonoslack]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

That link points to the 100MP (Type 3.4) sensor. Sony does not publish datasheets for customized sensors. I.e., even if a published monochrome sensor datasheet does not show PDAF pixels, it does not mean that such a sensor cannot be built. We know that Sony uses the same sensor with different, customized toppings: both CFA and microlenses. I understand that the microlens layer defines the PDAF pixels, including both their presence, number, and location. There is no standardized microlens layer required for that sensor.

Hi There 

I had some very detailed discussions about this with Leica - PDAF is fine with Monochrom sensors - it will work perfectly well (just the same). The problem is dealing with the missing information - colour sensors can deal with it in conjunction with the demosaicing. I suggested to them that they could manage it with the 'defect list' for dead/ malfunctioning pixels (which both colour and monochrom sensors have) .. but this list has limited memory, and cannot deal with the number of PDAF sensors . . . . . . of course that memory could be changed, but then we are looking at real money - and actually the focusing on the Q3M is fine anyway! (unless you after birds in flight)

[SrMi]

29 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The micro lens layer would then need circuitry to function. PDAF pixels are part of the wafer AFAIK. If it were the micro lens layer how would a camera with something like a Kolari modification still have PDAF.

Gordon

Every sensor requires a microlens layer, and Kolari does not and cannot remove it. Kolari replaces the top filter layer with a thinner one.

[CptSlevin]

9 hours ago, jonoslack said:

HI Captain Slevin - I will reply politely

There were freezing issues (for a few users)  with the M11 which were taken very seriously VERY seriously by Leica - I know this because I was on the large team of beta testers who were checking and rechecking each new version of the firmware. The very few who had bricked cameras had them replaced (quite right too)

The M11 has (and had from the start) the best skin tones of any Leica Camera - the magenta shift was not horrific, only happened with some cameras in grey conditions, and was easily fixed in post processing - but Leica put a lot of effort into finding a solution which wouldn't mean changing colour for people who already had established workflow with their camera (not an easy job). 

Nowadays the M11 and its variants are very stable with great firmware, battery life and wonderful image quality. 

What are the 'lot of problems' with the SL3/SL3S - I'm not aware of any - further than that the new menu system is a wonder of sensible, configurable and well thought out minimalism. I understood that they are selling quite well - do you have access to Leica Sales figures? I don't know anyone who has one of the SL3 family of cameras who doesn't love it (but I don't know everyone of course!).

"little to no firmware" not sure what that means?

 

Well, actually it has the internals of a 3 year old camera, and in the UK it's about the same price as the Hasselblad (but I agree the AF isn't nearly as good). It has a range of focus assist tools, but none which rely on PDAF sensors (like Canon or Nikon). There was a LOT of research done on a hybrid rangefinder and they found that it was inevitably the worst of both worlds. Remember - the Fuji X-pro does not have an optical rangefinder, just an optical viewfinder - Leica made this camera because their users asked for it  - as far as I understand it's selling well, and people like it - if it's a success I'm sure that they will develop it further - including firmware updates in the future. 

But of course I'm just a fanboy!

Finally, someone addressing the things I stated.
So hop on.

- "Nowadays the M11 and its variants are very stable with great firmware, battery life and wonderful image quality. "
Nowadays, it's has been 3 years from the release, that's an absurd amount of time for flagman products for over 10k$ to get fixed with real serous issues.
Bricking and unreliability of M11 was the real reason I didn't want even to try it out as I travel a lot and don't want to rely on something with bad firmware.

And to me magenta shift was horrible, and the latest fix showed that on this forum and also on youtube I was not the only one, who didn't it pleasant at all.

- SL3/SL3S.
State of problems: horrific blackout timing in EVF during shots, EVF which on paper is the same as SL2 is not accurate for focusing
17:40

I had the same issue, SL3 / SL3S EVF is not sharp, it's like fogged.
 

Overwriting issues (already fixed), but it showed the state of firmware to be also unreliable.
IBIS used to be 5.5 Stops, now it's 5 stops, it's a decrease.

AF system still lacks fine tuning and PDAF worse than Lumix counerparts, 2 years since a release.

" I understood that they are selling quite well - do you have access to Leica Sales figures? I don't know anyone who has one of the SL3 family of cameras who doesn't love it (but I don't know everyone of course!)."

Everyone who buys their products love them and tend to defend them, it's consumer psychology.
How I understood that's not selling well?
Maybe have a glance in SL forum section and amount of posters in SL2/SL2 vs SL3/SL3S respective threads?
It's night and day in volumes and data can be extrapolated to see that SL3 might be selling well, but SL3S was a flop for sure.

- M EV1

"It has a range of focus assist tools", like what? Magnification and Focus Peaking which are also present in any other Leica Camera?
I would like to point out, that people asked for M EV1 for like a decade and everyone was hoping for something unique in experience like using rangefinder M, it's unique to use rangefinder. They put away rangefinder mechanism (the most expensive part) and put mediocre EVF and still the price is like sky high!
Using M EV1 is like using any other camera with M lens attached and you are limited to 60FPS EVF which is bad, because it was supposed to be their unique selling point. No real unique focusing aids.
There is like no appeal to this camera apart from if you use M camera and having bad sight.

It's not innovating, they are refurbishing the same technology and electronics in different models through a 3-5 year life span and increase pricing, at some points making cameras worse, how come?
Leica is becoming a king in releasing half baked and undercooked products for premium and then fixing them for 3-5 years, but it doesn't work like that, the release must be stellar, what are we paying money for? To be beta testers?

I am not an engineer, I am a photographer, I don't make lenses or cameras, I make photos and I don't understand why engineers at Leica keep on stagnation track, because if for years I would make less pleasant images, but increased my fanbase - I would be ok to criticise, because I chose quantity over quality.

Edited November 22 by CptSlevin

[jonoslack]

5 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

There is like no appeal to this camera apart from if you use M camera and having bad sight.

 

Actually - l don't think it is good for M camera users having bad sight - I know that was one of the excuses for it's existence, but if you can't focus with a rangefinder because your sight is bad I would have thought an EVF was even harder. 

As for the rest - rant away - Leica posted their best ever figures this year, so although they are doing everything wrong for you, they must be doing something right for someone. 

 

I think this is the crux of your argument 

5 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

Everyone who buys their products love them and tend to defend them, it's consumer psychology.
 

So basically if people like the old products it's because they're good . . . . . and if they like the new products it's consumer psychology?

🤷‍♂️

[CptSlevin]

13 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Actually - l don't think it is good for M camera users having bad sight - I know that was one of the excuses for it's existence, but if you can't focus with a rangefinder because your sight is bad I would have thought an EVF was even harder. 

As for the rest - rant away - Leica posted their best ever figures this year, so although they are doing everything wrong for you, they must be doing something right for someone. 

 

I think this is the crux of your argument 

So basically if people like the old products it's because they're good . . . . . and if they like the new products it's consumer psychology?

🤷‍♂️

"As for the rest - rant away - Leica posted their best ever figures this year, so although they are doing everything wrong for you, they must be doing something right for someone. "

I know and that's the pinnacle of a problem, they are becoming new Apple, Apple also releases almost the same every year and they are good in sales, BUT

There will be a moment when Q models won't sell as good as they used to, because even Sony decided to release their RX III, Sigma BF is a real success for Sigma in terms of camera sales.
M model is also might begin to stagnate, as I know a lot of people decide to go with M10, M10R, not M11.
SL is already struggling with sales.

And instead of innovation, new features, USP they tend to release same old (good, no one is arguing that new cameras are good), but they lack innovations, only polished and rebadged.

That's the problem, right now Leica is king, no one argues that they are the king of the niche, but that won't be long for sure.

"So basically if people like the old products it's because they're good . . . . . and if they like the new products it's consumer psychology?"

People like old products because they have proven to be reliable and answering to the artistic needs, because if you buy a new camera and don't like it all or it's controversial, there is a high chance that it will be sold away in 1 year span.
But if camera is in the hands of a user for a long period of time - it's no more romantic period like with new gear, it's mature relationship.

That's why you don't hear critique from new camera owners - they are over the moon at first, but then comes the real use and that's why there is so many second hand Q / M's on the market.

 

Edited November 22 by CptSlevin

[LocalHero1953]

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I bought my first new Leica in 2011 (M9), and have watched every new launch since then. I can't remember one that didn't have similar rants at launch (and were cited to predict the downfall of Leica). Yet now they are the old models that have proved their worth*. That's the way of the world.

I have owned Leica cameras and lenses continuously since then, which probably makes me an unreliable commentator, though, in my defence, in that time I have also owned Canon, Olympus, Sigma and, still, Blackmagic.

 

*The only one that appears to have remained unpopular was the XVario.

Edited November 22 by LocalHero1953

[T25UFO]

43 minutes ago, CptSlevin said:

"As for the rest - rant away - Leica posted their best ever figures this year, so although they are doing everything wrong for you, they must be doing something right for someone. "

I know and that's the pinnacle of a problem, they are becoming new Apple, Apple also releases almost the same every year and they are good in sales, BUT

There will be a moment when Q models won't sell as good as they used to, because even Sony decided to release their RX III, Sigma BF is a real success for Sigma in terms of camera sales.
M model is also might begin to stagnate, as I know a lot of people decide to go with M10, M10R, not M11.
SL is already struggling with sales.

And instead of innovation, new features, USP they tend to release same old (good, no one is arguing that new cameras are good), but they lack innovations, only polished and rebadged.

That's the problem, right now Leica is king, no one argues that they are the king of the niche, but that won't be long for sure.

"So basically if people like the old products it's because they're good . . . . . and if they like the new products it's consumer psychology?"

People like old products because they have proven to be reliable and answering to the artistic needs, because if you buy a new camera and don't like it all or it's controversial, there is a high chance that it will be sold away in 1 year span.
But if camera is in the hands of a user for a long period of time - it's no more romantic period like with new gear, it's mature relationship.

That's why you don't hear critique from new camera owners - they are over the moon at first, but then comes the real use and that's why there is so many second hand Q / M's on the market.

 

I think Leica should employ you as their supreme overlord, combining the roles of marketing director with technical product development.  I’m sure you have all the right qualifications and could teach Peter Karbe a thing or two 😂

Edited November 22 by T25UFO

[Olaf_ZG]

Still, there are true words in what @CptSlevin is saying. I am not a long-time fanboy, but bought quite some Leica the last five years. Had the m10m, both sl2 iterations, almost all q’s. Liked them a lot, but, the problems - though some call small - with the m11, stopped me from buying either the m11 or the m-ev. I did not upgrade to SL3 due to the camera losing images. It might be a selective case, but it happened.

I kept a m8/m9m, with a 24 elmar and a 50lux, and some VL lenses. Still want a 35, but this won’t be a Leica lens. I bought a demo Q2M recently but that will be it.

Sold off the SL system and the Q43, and stepped into another brand. To me, the new offerings from Leica could not keep me with them, so I moved on and Leica won’t get new sales anymore.

Maybe I am a rare one, and not hurting Leica sales. But I doubt, I see more people switching. Leica might be king, but they should care not to take it for granted. Even kingdoms come to an end.

[CptSlevin]

2 hours ago, T25UFO said:

I think Leica should employ you as their supreme overlord, combining the roles of marketing director with technical product development.  I’m sure you have all the right qualifications and could teach Peter Karbe a thing or two 😂

You talk too much for a person, who doesn't have anything objective to add for the conversation.
I am not going to be a sales person for camera brand, neither do you.

At least I have some valid point to back up, you don't.

[jonoslack]

9 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

I am not an engineer, I am a photographer, I don't make lenses or cameras, I make photos and I don't understand why engineers at Leica keep on stagnation track, because if for years I would make less pleasant images, but increased my fanbase - I would be ok to criticise, because I chose quantity over quality.

I would say that about myself as well  (that I'm a photographer, not an engineer) I spent the best part of 6 months shooting events with an SL3-S, and whilst there are a whole load of technical boxes that it does not tick, there was no single point where any of this missing tech impacted on my photography. . . . On the other hand the really inspirational interface, and the ability to make User Profiles which completely transform the camera (including the quick menu items) certainly did impact the photography.  If you are interested it's here:

https://www.slack.co.uk/articles/the-sl3-s-as-an-event-camera.html

I'd love to see them implement focus stacking and pre-capture modes - perhaps they will - but there really was no point where I needed 5 fps (with autofocus) let alone the 30fps the camera provides

4 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

And instead of innovation, new features, USP they tend to release same old (good, no one is arguing that new cameras are good), but they lack innovations, only polished and rebadged.

It's getting harder and harder to develop innovation, new features USP which is actually relevant in terms of photography - ten years ago progress was fast and worthwhile, especially in terms of sensor developments - these days even Sony bring out a new flagship after 3.1/2 years . . . with the same sensor as the previous model!

For camera reviewers (like your YouTube reviewer of the SL3-S), what they want is clicks, and they best way to do that is to slag off Leica - easy meat - but in terms of what to write about - if you only have it for 48 hours all you have time to do is to compare physical features, tick boxes. 

What Leica is continually refining is their UX - but nobody can get their heads around a user interface  in 48 hours - it takes time and use - they are incredibly careful not to have bulky and overcrowded menus or features which nobody understands. 

My point is that if you really are a photographer, then what you care about is the camera's ability to take good pictures easily with good image quality - 60 fps with a stacked sensor has nothing to do with this unless you actually shoot sport as a living.

It's good to have these discussions though - which is why I'm taking you seriously!

Edited November 22 by jonoslack

[T25UFO]

2 hours ago, CptSlevin said:

You talk too much for a person, who doesn't have anything objective to add for the conversation.
I am not going to be a sales person for camera brand, neither do you.

At least I have some valid point to back up, you don't.

Oh, I’m just poking the bear to get a reaction and it seems to work.  I do hope you are enjoying this little conversation as much as I am 🤪

Edited November 22 by T25UFO

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

I would say that about myself as well  (that I'm a photographer, not an engineer) I spent the best part of 6 months shooting events with an SL3-S, and whilst there are a whole load of technical boxes that it does not tick, there was no single point where any of this missing tech impacted on my photography. . . . On the other hand the really inspirational interface, and the ability to make User Profiles which completely transform the camera (including the quick menu items) certainly did impact the photography.  If you are interested it's here:

https://www.slack.co.uk/articles/the-sl3-s-as-an-event-camera.html

I'd love to see them implement focus stacking and pre-capture modes - perhaps they will - but there really was no point where I needed 5 fps (with autofocus) let alone the 30fps the camera provides

I think it is unfair for people with camera experience to participate in the camera discussion alongside people without that experience, and who need to rely solely on specs.

😜

Edited November 22 by SrMi

[Olaf_ZG]

It is very unfair Srdjan. But for me there was, and still is, a reason for not having the camera experience with the newer models. Ofcourse plenty of people will buy immediately the latest thing Leica brings out. But, at the other hand certain people left.

If Leica wants to cherish more great financial years in future, they ofcourse need to care about the first group of people, but it might be wise to care about the other group and in between people as well.

But, though critics are accepted and welcomed on this forum, some members can not handle such critics to their favorite brand. Just like soccer: don’t touch my club… 

[LocalHero1953]

5 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

But, though critics are accepted and welcomed on this forum, some members can not handle such critics to their favorite brand. Just like soccer: don’t touch my club… 

Unfortunately @CptSlevin just has a way of expressing such criticism that is both a barrier to its being accepted, and a way of putting the back up of anyone who might disagree with them. The inevitable conflagration derails rational discussion.

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

It is very unfair Srdjan. But for me there was, and still is, a reason for not having the camera experience with the newer models. Ofcourse plenty of people will buy immediately the latest thing Leica brings out. But, at the other hand certain people left.

If Leica wants to cherish more great financial years in future, they ofcourse need to care about the first group of people, but it might be wise to care about the other group and in between people as well.

But, though critics are accepted and welcomed on this forum, some members can not handle such critics to their favorite brand. Just like soccer: don’t touch my club… 

(The emoji should have indicated that the post was tongue-in-cheek.)

Critic and productive opposing opinions are the essence of this forum. That is the only way we can learn from each other, which should be the goal for all participants. 

It is the posts that exist only to argue and troll, the posts that declare Leica and everyone buying and using their latest cameras as fools, that I have an issue with. Disagreeing with Leica's product choices is OK, but one should also accept the experience of those who use them.

I am very reluctant to have a definitive opinion on a camera I do not own or use.

 

[SrMi]

27 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

But, though critics are accepted and welcomed on this forum, some members can not handle such critics to their favorite brand. Just like soccer: don’t touch my club… 

I do not see that being an issue in this forum.

Too often, that argument is being used to discard knowledge and experience: you disagree with me only because you are a fanboy.

[jonoslack]

33 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

But, though critics are accepted and welcomed on this forum, some members can not handle such critics to their favorite brand. Just like soccer: don’t touch my club… 

I haven't seen any of that in this thread . . . . unless of course you are talking about my responses - I was trying to be measured and polite . . . . . but having a camera completely trashed (the M11) which you have used to shoot 3 weddings, many concerts and a huge amount of personal work over a period of 3 years is kind of galling - sure it had some issues - I was working on the beta forums testing the fixes for them! 

 

5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I do not see that being an issue in this forum.

Too often, that argument is being used to discard knowledge and experience: you disagree with me only because you are a fanboy.

HI Srdjan

I fear that we are both fanboys - there is no escape! 😂

[Olaf_ZG]

@jonoslack it wasn’t aimed at you, nor at @SrMi who is a fanboy, but not solely Leica, so it doesn’t count but more in general and it happened by coincidence in this thread.

I will leave it by this, cause the discussion aint moving forward. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[jonoslack]

6 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Still, there are true words in what @CptSlevin is saying. I am not a long-time fanboy, but bought quite some Leica the last five years. Had the m10m, both sl2 iterations, almost all q’s. Liked them a lot, but, the problems - though some call small - with the m11, stopped me from buying either the m11 or the m-ev. I did not upgrade to SL3 due to the camera losing images. It might be a selective case, but it happened.

Sad though - The M11 is a wonderful camera - and it always has been, I experienced all the problems, and none of them were show stoppers - having had all the M cameras at the start since the M9, they have all had issues which were roundly criticised at the time. 

As for the SL3 losing images - that happened to me as well - no excuse of course (though you had to pull out the battery with the camera switched on to make it happen). I even hired a different camera for an important shoot because of it. Leica owned up immediately, explained the issue and had a fix In a week or so . But my SL3 is now a reliable and trusty workhorse with shiny corners and tens of thousands of images under it's belt - the sensor is wonderful and the interface is just excellent . . . sure it won't keep focus on Jordan running at the camera and zigzagging as well as a Sony . . . . 

Other cameras have their issues as well, and certainly Leica have had their fair share, but my feeling is that these days they are much more conscientious about fixing them - and they certainly are listening to their customers. 

I'm glad you are happy having moved on (I've used Sony A1 A7r IV and V, Olympus OM-1ii and other cameras as well

Edited November 22 by jonoslack