Radical feature improvement - subject tracking with manual focus (Nikon Z f state of the art)

[la1402]

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Seriously, I really feel that camera makers are aiming for the lowest photographic common denominator through automation, and are not interested in producing tools that challenge the photographer to produce the best possible result

That is happening everywhere in this world. Everything is aimed at lowering the thresholds of entry/participation and increasing convenience in achieving effortless results. Sometimes it makes sense, but overall i have a feeling it is geting out of hand. It doesn't mean that equipment which makes it harder to achieve results is a garantuee for great outcomes, either.

[la1402]

26 minutes ago, howard_cummer said:

I was gifted a Nikon ZF for Christmas by my children. I have an M to Z adapter and after sometime with demonstration videos have managed to set up the ZF so that in manual focus with the adapter on and a Leica lens attached the following picture taking sequence happens. Frame a photo of a person, touch the shutter button, the eye tracking starts and goes to the eyes, (I have programmed the video button to zoom 100% on the eyes), focus at 100% enlargement using coloured focus assist (I prefer red) and when focus is attained, press down the shutter button to take the picture. It's fast and the number of keepers is surprisingly high if the person isn't moving too much. I wouldn't try to install this feature in a rangefinder M camera - it would be simpler (and cheaper) just to buy a ZF. Photo example. Granddaughter Ellie, cropped closeup of 75 Summicron on ZF. This lens front focuses on my M10R and I was going to send it to Leica to be calibrated. I'm not going to bother now as I can achieve very accurate (sharp eye lashes!) on the ZF with little fuss. The use of the eye tracking in manual focus is truly an advancement IMHO.

The second photo is with the 50mm f2.0 LLL Cooke panchro copy - also cropped.

 

Nice. I am a bit tempted by that ZF. But I will wait for the big surprises from Leica for their anniversary 😉

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[Warton]

2 hours ago, howard_cummer said:

I was gifted a Nikon ZF for Christmas by my children. I have an M to Z adapter and after sometime with demonstration videos have managed to set up the ZF so that in manual focus with the adapter on and a Leica lens attached the following picture taking sequence happens. Frame a photo of a person, touch the shutter button, the eye tracking starts and goes to the eyes, (I have programmed the video button to zoom 100% on the eyes), focus at 100% enlargement using coloured focus assist (I prefer red) and when focus is attained, press down the shutter button to take the picture. It's fast and the number of keepers is surprisingly high if the person isn't moving too much. I wouldn't try to install this feature in a rangefinder M camera - it would be simpler (and cheaper) just to buy a ZF. Photo example. Granddaughter Ellie, cropped closeup of 75 Summicron on ZF. This lens front focuses on my M10R and I was going to send it to Leica to be calibrated. I'm not going to bother now as I can achieve very accurate (sharp eye lashes!) on the ZF with little fuss. The use of the eye tracking in manual focus is truly an advancement IMHO.

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The second photo is with the 50mm f2.0 LLL Cooke panchro copy - also cropped.

 

very nice pictures.

What M to Z mount do you have? I was looking at some big names like Voigtlander, but quite expensive. Or those cheap stuff like Urth works too?

[hdmesa]

Quite a bit of ignorance in this thread about how the Zf subject tracking for manual focus works. It does not require a chipped/electronically-connected lens to work. It will track the subject/eye just like it does for an AF lens, and all the photographer has to do is push the magnification button to zoom in, focus, and press the shutter. What chipped manual focus lenses add is they allow the Zf's focus point box to illuminate green when focus is achieved, which is great because it takes away the need to zoom in to focus by sight.

This is nothing new and nothing proprietary from Nikon. Canon had this in the original EOS R and RP, in fact it was likely an accident as they simply left the subject detection in an active state if you happen to have had AF set to eye-detection. It functioned just like it does on the Zf – you get subject tracking with non-chipped lenses but if you use a chipped lens (a Zeiss ZE lens with the Canon EF adapter for example), you also get Canon's Focus Guide feature, which is similar to the Zf's green box but a bit more sophisticated.

 

Edited January 9 by hdmesa

[Nitnaros]

I like the idea of using software to predetermine the focus point, meaning the portion of the image the zoomed in view shows 

the fact that the Leica rangefinder mechanism is around for decades, doesn’t mean Leica shouldn’t further improve it

otherwise, why buy any Leica M with live view 🙂 ? The M3 - M7 didn’t have that either 

[howard_cummer]

1 hour ago, Warton said:

very nice pictures.

What M to Z mount do you have? I was looking at some big names like Voigtlander, but quite expensive. Or those cheap stuff like Urth works too?

it is a Fotasy adapter bought on Amazon. Cheap, plastic Z mount - metal M mount on the other side.

[Warton]

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5 hours ago, howard_cummer said:

it is a Fotasy adapter bought on Amazon. Cheap, plastic Z mount - metal M mount on the other side.

How does VR work with those dummy adapter? I assume the adapter only makes the physical conversion, and has no electronic communication between the lens and the camera. In order for VR to work, the camera has to know the focal length of the lens, I assume?

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Warton said:

How does VR work with those dummy adapter? I assume the adapter only makes the physical conversion, and has no electronic communication between the lens and the camera. In order for VR to work, the camera has to know the focal length of the lens, I assume?

Most current production mirrorless cameras allow you to enter the focal length of the adapted lens. Many allow you to save presets for your most used focal lengths. Some even let you customize the name of the preset, which then shows up in the EXIF data.

[howard_cummer]

I have presets for the focal lengths of all the manual lenses I attach to the Zf and I manually input that focal length for the lens I attach. VR continues to work AFAK.

[pgk]

10 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Quite a bit of ignorance in this thread about how the Zf subject tracking for manual focus works. It does not require a chipped/electronically-connected lens to work. It will track the subject/eye just like it does for an AF lens, and all the photographer has to do is push the magnification button to zoom in, focus, and press the shutter. What chipped manual focus lenses add is they allow the Zf's focus point box to illuminate green when focus is achieved, which is great because it takes away the need to zoom in to focus by sight.

On an EVF camera I can see it having some potential use. But on a rangefinder? Another button/menu to switch it on and off - bloat. The fact that it has no appeared on all Canon models probably tells us that they found it of limited appeal or it would most certainly have been incorporated to up the specification.

[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, pgk said:

On an EVF camera I can see it having some potential use. But on a rangefinder? Another button/menu to switch it on and off - bloat.

I don't remember suggesting it should be implemented on the M11. Seems like something that makes more sense on a future camera like the SL3. I think the M11 might overheat and burst into flames if it had to track subjects. It could also be added to the Q3 with a simple change to firmware, which would be to remove the limitation that subject tracking is only active when the lens AF switch is in the AF position.

8 hours ago, pgk said:

...The fact that it has no appeared on all Canon models probably tells us that they found it of limited appeal or it would most certainly have been incorporated to up the specification.

I thought it was reported it worked on the R6 Mark II, but I don't have one to test.

Whether the original implementation of it on the R and RP was on purpose (though undocumented in the manual) or accidental (simply forgot to code subject tracking to be off without an AF lens attached), I don't know. But on the Zf, it's certainly been a very well-received feature by Zf owners, so much so that Z6/7/8/9 users are asking for it to be added to the next firmware update for those cameras. I owned the Zf for a time and found it useful. What I didn't find useful was Nikon's eye-AF tends to focus on eyelashes and eyebrows instead of the iris, so the green focus confirmation box for chipped manual focus lenses on the Zf have the same accuracy limitations as Z AF lenses. Canon on the other hand, their eye-AF nails iris focus at f/1.2, so their manual Focus Guide feature is more accurate when using it for eye-tracking focus confirmation. I hope Nikon improves their eye-AF across the board, and the focus confirmation green box feature for chipped manual focus lenses would of course benefit from such improvements.

Edit to add: It's been so long since I had the R and RP, it could have been Canon's subject tracking on those cameras only worked with manual focus lenses that were chipped and when using the EF adapter, which allows for communication with the lens. I may have misspoke about that. So the Zf's implementation could have removed the limitation that subject tracking requires a chipped lens compared to what Canon did. They both, however, do require chipped lenses in order for their respective focus confirmation aids to work.

Edited January 10 by hdmesa

[Warton]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I don't remember suggesting it should be implemented on the M11. Seems like something that makes more sense on a future camera like the SL3. I think the M11 might overheat and burst into flames if it had to track subjects. It could also be added to the Q3 with a simple change to firmware, which would be to remove the limitation that subject tracking is only active when the lens AF switch is in the AF position.

I thought it was reported it worked on the R6 Mark II, but I don't have one to test.

Whether the original implementation of it on the R and RP was on purpose (though undocumented in the manual) or accidental (simply forgot to code subject tracking to be off without an AF lens attached), I don't know. But on the Zf, it's certainly been a very well-received feature by Zf owners, so much so that Z6/7/8/9 users are asking for it to be added to the next firmware update for those cameras. I owned the Zf for a time and found it useful. What I didn't find useful was Nikon's eye-AF tends to focus on eyelashes and eyebrows instead of the iris, so the green focus confirmation box for chipped manual focus lenses on the Zf have the same accuracy limitations as Z AF lenses. Canon on the other hand, their eye-AF nails iris focus at f/1.2, so their manual Focus Guide feature is more accurate when using it for eye-tracking focus confirmation. I hope Nikon improves their eye-AF across the board, and the focus confirmation green box feature for chipped manual focus lenses would of course benefit from such improvements.

Edit to add: It's been so long since I had the R and RP, it could have been Canon's subject tracking on those cameras only worked with manual focus lenses that were chipped and when using the EF adapter, which allows for communication with the lens. I may have misspoke about that. So the Zf's implementation could have removed the limitation that subject tracking requires a chipped lens compared to what Canon did. They both, however, do require chipped lenses in order for their respective focus confirmation aids to work.

Maybe a little off topic, but I am wondering how manual lenses act on Nikon Zf body with that eye/face recognition/confirmation.

In manual focus model of Zf with native nikkor lens 40mm/f2, a white box is moving around on a face (recognition), and it turns to green when in focus (confirmation).

Does this also work with 1. a Z mount manual focus lens, i.e. Voigtlander?, 2. a M-mount lens with a dummy adapter? 3. a M-mount lens with "smart" adapter, e.g. TTArtisan m-z 6bit code adapter?

I have bunch of M-mount lens, either coded or non coded, to use with Zf body.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Warton said:

Maybe a little off topic, but I am wondering how manual lenses act on Nikon Zf body with that eye/face recognition/confirmation.

In manual focus model of Zf with native nikkor lens 40mm/f2, a white box is moving around on a face (recognition), and it turns to green when in focus (confirmation).

Does this also work with 1. a Z mount manual focus lens, i.e. Voigtlander?, 2. a M-mount lens with a dummy adapter? 3. a M-mount lens with "smart" adapter, e.g. TTArtisan m-z 6bit code adapter?

I have bunch of M-mount lens, either coded or non coded, to use with Zf body.

Subject recognition works with any lens and any adapter. Depending on your subject tracking setting, either the white focus box will chase the eye or the white focus box will chase the subject –> and using a function button set to zoom, you can zoom to where the focus point/area is at any given moment. 

Examples of when you get subject-detection without focus confirmation:

• Non-chipped lens with dumb adapter
• Chipped lens with dumb adapter

Examples of subject-detection with focus confirmation when focusing manually:

• Chipped lens in native Z mount (AF lens in manual focus mode or manual focus only lens)
• Adapted chipped manual focus lens with an adapter that also has electronic contacts and communicates data to the camera

I'm not very familiar with the electronically-connected M lens adapters, the kind that let you dial in a focal length or read and communicate the 6-bit code – I recommend finding the Zf for manual focus lens thread over at Fred Miranda and read through it for more information.