SF20 + M6 TTL Usage

[kzisme]

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I've recently purchased an SF20 flash to use with my M6 TTL. I'm trying to make sure I am understanding how to use the TTL setting for the flash properly. After checking the manual it's been pretty unclear, so I have a few questions. 

1. As for usage is it as simple as setting the camera+flash to TTL, setting the ISO on the camera, and changing the exposure to your liking? My assumption is the flash will output enough to properly expose for any scene, so just ignore the in camera meter? 

2. Setting any settings (aperture/etc) on the flash while in TTL mode only shows you the distance output on the back of the flash, but does it alter the functionality of the flash power output or is it just for reference if you so choose?

3. What other things are worth noting when using flash in TTL mode (or I suppose manual?) It seems that in TTL mode it's mostly just hands off and pretty simple, but I feel like I'm missing something in the process.

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[stray cat]

Hi kzisme. I have the same combination. You're right in what you say - it's quite unintuitive because you're never quite sure what the camera/flash is doing because the readings don't quite correspond with what's on the flash. But be assured that the flash handles the exposure fine once you've set the basic parameter of ISO. The reason NOT to ignore the camera is of course for fill where you want to balance whatever the flash is illuminating with any background that the flash won't reach, so that is when you might set the aperture on the flash. I usually will set an aperture of one stop more on the flash than I have on the camera (eg f8 on the flash, f11 on the camera) which I find balances things nicely. I have no idea how to do it in manual mode as I never use it - TTL is perfect for what I want out of the combo. But play around with some shots on your next roll of film and that is probably the best way to learn the ins and outs of the M6TTL and SF20. I also use a Metz 54 MZ-3 with a SCA3502 adapter when I require more powerful and adjustable flash output, and that also works perfectly.

 

[kzisme]

5 minutes ago, stray cat said:

Hi kzisme. I have the same combination. You're right in what you say - it's quite unintuitive because you're never quite sure what the camera/flash is doing because the readings don't quite correspond with what's on the flash. But be assured that the flash handles the exposure fine once you've set the basic parameter of ISO. The reason NOT to ignore the camera is of course for fill where you want to balance whatever the flash is illuminating with any background that the flash won't reach, so that is when you might set the aperture on the flash. I usually will set an aperture of one stop more on the flash than I have on the camera (eg f8 on the flash, f11 on the camera) which I find balances things nicely. I have no idea how to do it in manual mode as I never use it - TTL is perfect for what I want out of the combo. But play around with some shots on your next roll of film and that is probably the best way to learn the ins and outs of the M6TTL and SF20. I also use a Metz 54 MZ-3 with a SCA3502 adapter when I require more powerful and adjustable flash output, and that also works perfectly.

 

When you say "set the aperture on the flash" does that just show you the maximum distance the flash will reach (when in TTL mode), or is it changing the flash duration itself?

I suppose I'm just trying to understand if it's necessary to change settings on the flash (apart from ISO+TTL), and how to balance the whole scene based on the in camera meter and what is "necessary" to change on the flash to accomplish that. 

[stray cat]

It's changing the flash output itself AND it shows you the maximum distance. Another way of doing it is to set the same aperture on the lens and the flash then adjusting the output of the flash using the +/-P button on the camera. Setting "-" on that will reduce the output of the flash so you'll be able to balance for fill that way.

[kzisme]

9 minutes ago, stray cat said:

It's changing the flash output itself AND it shows you the maximum distance. Another way of doing it is to set the same aperture on the lens and the flash then adjusting the output of the flash using the +/-P button on the camera. Setting "-" on that will reduce the output of the flash so you'll be able to balance for fill that way.

Oh, that makes a lot more sense! Almost like an override for the TTL? 

My current understanding with TTL is that is handles most (if not all?) Of the guesswork of manual flash. Allowing you to choose whatever aperture you see fit, and it changes the flash duration for you. 

Is your workflow similar to this? 

1. Setting the camera+flash to TTL and setting ISO

2. Choose an aperture you want based on "XYZ"?

3. Flash properly exposes scene based on TTL connection.

 

Somehow this feels like a lot of guesswork and hoping everything is getting enough light from the flash (since the in camera meter says it's underexposed)

[stray cat]

Yes, but just to be clear, I set the same aperture on the flash AND the lens and then adjust the flash output according to what I want, either by using the "+-/P" button on the flash or adjusting the flash aperture using the aperture button (one stop smaller aperture on camera than flash for balanced fill). So it DOES override the TTL if you want it to (eg for fill). The best thing is to play around with it, take a few pictures at different settings and make notes about what your settings are because (and I think everyone finds this) it all gets very confusing very quickly.

[kzisme]

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2 minutes ago, stray cat said:

Yes, but just to be clear, I set the same aperture on the flash AND the lens and then adjust the flash output according to what I want, either by using the "+-/P" button on the flash or adjusting the flash aperture using the aperture button (one stop smaller aperture on camera than flash for balanced fill). So it DOES override the TTL if you want it to (eg for fill). The best thing is to play around with it, take a few pictures at different settings and make notes about what your settings are because (and I think everyone finds this) it all gets very confusing very quickly.

Gotcha! So, if you DON'T match the flash and the lens aperture (essentially ignoring fill flash with exposure compensation - what typically happens?) 

For sure! I just got my flash and some new batteries today, so I've been reading and trying to understand it a good bit. The M6 manual also mentions the "flash" symbol in the viewfinder flashes when the "correct" exposure was reached, but I haven't noticed that happening, or if I'm misunderstanding. 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds this a little un-clear! I just want some accurately-ish exposed images 😅 without setting it to TTL and assuming

[stray cat]

I can't actually remember what happens if you DON'T match the aperture on the flash and the lens. I just do it now. Unfortunately I use the flash sufficiently infrequently that I forget what happens if I don't adjust both the flash and lens aperture (and ISO). So I just do it and it works. The flash symbol kind of sits there in the viewfinder and I don't actually notice what it does, but using the method described I don't get exposure problems so I figure it's all good. It's such a stunning combination when you do get it working right, though, so well worth experimenting with/taking notes and using:

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Here I used the Metz flash at -1 compensation for fill with a 90mm lens. The SF20 would have been exactly the same.

[kzisme]

50 minutes ago, stray cat said:

I can't actually remember what happens if you DON'T match the aperture on the flash and the lens. I just do it now. Unfortunately I use the flash sufficiently infrequently that I forget what happens if I don't adjust both the flash and lens aperture (and ISO). So I just do it and it works. The flash symbol kind of sits there in the viewfinder and I don't actually notice what it does, but using the method described I don't get exposure problems so I figure it's all good. It's such a stunning combination when you do get it working right, though, so well worth experimenting with/taking notes and using:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Here I used the Metz flash at -1 compensation for fill with a 90mm lens. The SF20 would have been exactly the same.

Thanks for the detailed responses!  That Image is a great example!  I personally picked up this flash to try using it indoors mostly (where insufficient lighting typically occurs for me)and maybe some outdoor stuff.  It didn't occur to me from looking over the SF20 manual that you COULD even override the flash settings by inputting the current aperture.  I had assumed with the TTL Mode - you're kind of trusting the camera/flash/TTL to properly expose the scene and you have to guess on the compensation for fill lighting.  

Even in the manual it says under "Setting the working Aperture" - "With all other cameras including the Leica M6 TTL the aperture set on the lens must also be manually adjusted on the flashgun for this purpose press the..."  In the "Settings for TTL Mode" it never mentions to "Transfer the aperture adjusted on the lens manually to the flashgun so that the correct shooting range is indicated on the display" - there isn't ever a mention that this is necessary (or that it actually effects the output) - it just makes it sound like it gives you a good reference on the back LCD for flash distances at specific settings.  So odd!   

[stray cat]

Classic camera manual gobbledygook ensuring flash photography becomes more of a "dark art" than it needs to be. Anyway, welcome to the forum and please be sure to post some pictures - with or without flash - to the "I Like Film" thread.

[Borda]

On 12/27/2023 at 4:21 AM, kzisme said:

I've recently purchased an SF20 flash to use with my M6 TTL. I'm trying to make sure I am understanding how to use the TTL setting for the flash properly. After checking the manual it's been pretty unclear, so I have a few questions. 

1. As for usage is it as simple as setting the camera+flash to TTL, setting the ISO on the camera, and changing the exposure to your liking? My assumption is the flash will output enough to properly expose for any scene, so just ignore the in camera meter? 

2. Setting any settings (aperture/etc) on the flash while in TTL mode only shows you the distance output on the back of the flash, but does it alter the functionality of the flash power output or is it just for reference if you so choose?

3. What other things are worth noting when using flash in TTL mode (or I suppose manual?) It seems that in TTL mode it's mostly just hands off and pretty simple, but I feel like I'm missing something in the process.

You are definitively right. There is no need to set apperture on Flash body in TTL mode. It only shows the (usable) distance. The Flash itself is driven by camera. It is not depending on given value in Flash body. 

[Borda]

20 minutes ago, Borda said:

You are definitively right. There is no need to set apperture on Flash body in TTL mode. It only shows the (usable) distance. The Flash itself is driven by camera. It is not depending on given value in Flash body. 

Aaa... Sorry. 1.Set the time to 1/50 (or lower). 

 

[kzisme]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:45 PM, Borda said:

You are definitively right. There is no need to set apperture on Flash body in TTL mode. It only shows the (usable) distance. The Flash itself is driven by camera. It is not depending on given value in Flash body. 

Gotcha - that was my understanding.  The above poster also mentioned it did alter the output, so now I'm slightly more confused haha

[Borda]

16 minutes ago, kzisme said:

Gotcha - that was my understanding.  The above poster also mentioned it did alter the output, so now I'm slightly more confused haha

You are not to be confused, your understanding is definitively right. 

1. Refer to sf24d manual. It"s mutch better written. 

2. Set the Flash to TTL mode. Set ANY value of apperture on the Flash body. Then trigger the Flash with lowest and highest apperture set on the lens, without any changes of value, which is set on Flash body. You will clearly see the diference

The Flash is in TTL mode driven by camera sensor, the Flash itself has nothing to do with it. 

Which such a logic of TTL Flash settings (described above) - how can I use the for example Sf40 in on film camera? There are NO settings for apperture on Flash body. It Must be unusable then... But, of course, it works in TTL with any TTL M camera... 

[kzisme]

On 1/5/2024 at 3:34 PM, Borda said:

You are not to be confused, your understanding is definitively right. 

1. Refer to sf24d manual. It"s mutch better written. 

2. Set the Flash to TTL mode. Set ANY value of apperture on the Flash body. Then trigger the Flash with lowest and highest apperture set on the lens, without any changes of value, which is set on Flash body. You will clearly see the diference

The Flash is in TTL mode driven by camera sensor, the Flash itself has nothing to do with it. 

Which such a logic of TTL Flash settings (described above) - how can I use the for example Sf40 in on film camera? There are NO settings for apperture on Flash body. It Must be unusable then... But, of course, it works in TTL with any TTL M camera... 

Wonderful!  So, exposure comp + aperture change can pretty much get you the "feel" you are going for (DOF/fill wise) using TTL alone.

I'll have to checkout the sf24d manual.  The sf20 manual was pretty god awful to read!