M11 and M11M together or not ?

[Tom756]

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Good morning,

This little message to ask the community and possible owners of M11 and/or M11M for their opinions.

I have been the happy owner of the M11 since its release and which I use professionally with my SL2S as a complement. My style of photography is architecture, construction site monitoring, events, and sometimes portraits.

My favorite: black and white since I was a teenager. And I regularly process my images in black and white whether for my pleasure, sometimes exhibitions, or for clients. I had the chance to test the M11M for 15 days last summer. It was a new world opening up to me. A new way of working and capturing a monochrome world from start to finish. In short... since then I have only thought about that!

But my reason tells me "your M11 can continue to process in black and white"... My heart and part of my reason tells me "But the M11M will offer you the world in monochrome instantly with all the advantages that the we know Monochrome from Leica"...

My question is this: Are there any owners of M11 and M11M or M10M and M11 or even M10R and M11M? Or any other person enlightened by this question: Is it interesting, useful, differentiating, to work with an M11 and an M11M to optimize your workflow and allow you to have an optimum rendering of your images with each of them.

Thank you for your advice and happy holidays to all ! 

[Bikie John]

This is one of those topics that is widely debated - a bit like camera bags - and never really reaches any conclusions except that some people simply cannot understand why anyone would want to use a Mono-only camera and others find it really good.

In an attempt to summarise, there are two main reasons for wanting to use a Monochrom: technical, and psychological.

The technical reason is that not having a colour filter array in front of the sensor gives potentially better sharpness (because there is no need to de-mosaic the file, and you don't get some artefacts along the edges) and better low light performance because you are not losing half the light to the filters. Set against that, modern cameras perform so well in both respects that this is less important than it used to be.

The psychological side is, in my opinion, more fundamental and important. People talk about a "black & white mindset". If you use a camera which only shoots B&W you will look for images that work in B&W. For some of us this is important, for others it is irrelevant. For myself, I think the pictorial photos I take with a B&W camera are better than with a colour capable one, for this reason. And I can't fool myself by setting a colour camera to Mono mode, or just thinking I'll do the conversion later. Rather like the annoying fact that you always forget to pack three things for a holiday, and you can't fool fate by deliberately "forgetting" something unimportant 😁

From your experience with the M11M it sounds as though you are one of those people for whom the B&W mindset works. In which case go for it! I would suggest that if you have both colour and B&W versions of the camera it is not such a good idea to take both out at the same time. That is a recipe for compromise and confusion. Better to decide what you want to shoot and how, and leave the other one behind. But of course we are all different so it might be no problem for you.

Whatever you choose, enjoy it ... John

[basse]

M11M: breathleath world of perfection!

M11: perfect for everything.

Both: 👍

[Budfox]

People will also say that the mono files are more flexible in post because of the additional pixel data - no pixels filtered out by the colour array filter as per John. Of course, you can't use colour filters in post because there is no colour data - you need to use physical colour filters at time of capture. You also can't use the mono file as a colour file if it might have worked better artistically - that is more of an issue if you are taking pics commercially (as per Thorsten's advice from years back).

If you want two digital M's, there is benefit in having two cameras identical in design and function, and sharing batteries, EVF, and other add-ons. 

I often do take both the M11 (black) and M11M at the same time for flexibility, and still find utility in committing to B&W once the camera is out of the bag. They are also cumulatively even lighter than any other two digital M's.

[AceVentura1986]

Don’t have those but I do have the M9 and M9M. The benefits are that the systems are identical and use the same batteries. Regardless of which is your primary camera l you’ll always have a suitable backup.  Still, I find that I very seldom use the M9 and almost always favor the M9M.  That said, I just got an M10M and have no plans for buying any of the M10 color variants — at least not yet. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

I've got an M11, an M11M, an SL2, and still haven't let go of the M10M, nor a couple of thread-mount bodies and a stable of LTM lenses handed down to me. Though I started 35mm with an old Exacta (waaay back when), there has almost never been a time that I haven't been using Leica equipment. 

Bikie John (above) has summarized the two dominant themes to which folks  attribute the Monochroms' virtues. In my own mind, I have usually concluded that my own reasons for adopting the Monochrom line were wholeheartedly technical, but maybe there's more merit to the mindset idea than I've usually credited it with. 

On the analog side, I've spent considerable time with medium and large format equipment, starting in the 1970s. These efforts have been predominantly black and white, processed at home and printed at home, employing both analog and, later, digital printing. Both in terms of resolution and in terms of gradation and distribution of tones, the Monochroms have seemed (to me) capable of producing images that uniquely "feel like" medium and large format black and white. I say that having spent a lot of time also with medium format digital, that is, doing black and white conversion from images produced with sensors with a Bayer filter.

For a while I used both the M246 and the SL2 side by side. That was a nice pairing. Once it was available, I went through a spell of dithering and finally got hold of an M10M in an Open Box deal. It was easy to let the M246 go with the M10M in hand, despite conveniences offered by the M246, for example, built-in GPS when using the grip, and direct USB download of images (not seen again until the M11).

Of the M11 series, I got the M11 first because that's what Leica determined to release first. For a while my pairing was the M11 and the M10M. I fooled around some more with black and white conversion with the M11 images, thinking perhaps I could let the M10M go. The results were fine, but it continued to feel (subjectively) as if starting with a color image to produce a black and white print simply injected unwanted complication into the process. The oft-cited benefits of using the color channels to tune the monochrome conversion just didn't seem to outweigh the benefits of starting with a monochrome image to begin with - again - *subjectively*, that is, to me. So I eventually acquired an M11M, once again, in an Open Box deal from a major photography store. 

The M-series bodies and lenses are simply an extension of what photography has "felt like" for me since 1968 when I first ran bulk-loaded Tri-X through my Dad's IIIC, developed and printed in the darkroom set up in my Mom's laundry room. It's possible, maybe probable, that I'm simply a surviving anachronism. The muscle-memory, the placement of the viewfinder on the corner of the body, the rangefinder, it all feels as familiar as using a coffee cup to sip coffee, or a doorknob to open a door, or reaching for a light switch in a darkened room in one's own home. It simply falls to hand. 

So I use the M11 for color when I want color, and the SL2 when the situation calls for a zoom lens.

But if I could only have one Leica body, I'd choose a Monochrom.

[dbeids]

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I have an M10-r and M10M. I almost always shoot w the mono. Better low light performance and I use color filters like in the BW film days. Fabulous. 

[mmradman]

Both, yes.

My rationale, I run M240P and M246 side by side, colour  in good light and mono in any light, cameras nicely complement each other.

[MaticB]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:51 AM, Bikie John said:

The psychological side is, in my opinion, more fundamental and important. People talk about a "black & white mindset". If you use a camera which only shoots B&W you will look for images that work in B&W. For some of us this is important, for others it is irrelevant. For myself, I think the pictorial photos I take with a B&W camera are better than with a colour capable one, for this reason. And I can't fool myself by setting a colour camera to Mono mode, or just thinking I'll do the conversion later. Rather like the annoying fact that you always forget to pack three things for a holiday, and you can't fool fate by deliberately "forgetting" something unimportant 😁

As mentioned above - this is the main reason, at least for me. I have M10RBP and M11Monochrom, and I went through the same consideration as you mentioned. After some time (and with the help of my friend, already owning M11Monochrom and M10 R) I decided to buy M11Monon myself. I've never regreted and I use them constantly, one or another. I never go around with both though - depending what I have in my mind, I take the right one. 

[chriscove]

I use an M11 and M11M side by side and before that an M10 and M10M. My first choice is always BW but there are times when color is needed. For example, many people want to see there images in color , particularly travel images. I take my Leicas with me when traveling and when shooting pictures of the people I am traveling with I use the M11.  But for the things I want to shoot I use the M11M. I also do landscapes and for sunset and sunrises I generally like color images but most of everything else I use BW. I tried using a Q2 and converting to BW for 6 months before buying a Leica monochrome and I was never happy with my images. Once I bought a monochrome camera I felt back to my roots with TriX film. It’s a total luxury to have both and I feel fortunate. My M11 with a 35 and M11M with a 28 gives me a great kit. 

[TomSchmitt]

I have M11 and M11M. Technically I don’t see the IQ improvements of the mono files that significant. They are there, but not 9000 USD significant IMHO. You can buy a nice lens for that money. The psychological side as stated above is also not a slam dunk for me. If I set my M11 to the mono setting, it basically turns the user interface and the feel of the camera into mono mode. I can totally trick my brain into mono-mindset with that setting, and if I am to weak to resist the temptation to switch back, that’s my bad.

So if I did it again, I’d do the M11 and have both worlds. Plus a nice Noctilux.

[Tom756]

I would like to thank everyone who responded to my message. This was very useful to me in my reflection.

Since I've been thinking for almost a year, I had to make a decision.

I sold my Leica Q3 this week and finally took the plunge and purchased the M11 Monochrom.

I have been testing it for 3 days in my daily life and this day I used it for a client on a construction site. I am delighted with the result.

I know that the M11 with appropriate processing can achieve similar results. But knowing that I'm working with a monochrome in my hands allows me not to be polluted by colors. I am in a world where I remain focused on shadows, lights, contrasts. And that's what I like.

I also understand TomSchmitt 's reasoning, whom I thank. But you only live once. And not having a choice other than shooting in black and white, I find that it's a nice difference that goes with my photo projects.

Thanks again 🙏

[Steadimann]

21 hours ago, Tom756 said:

I would like to thank everyone who responded to my message. This was very useful to me in my reflection.

Since I've been thinking for almost a year, I had to make a decision.

I sold my Leica Q3 this week and finally took the plunge and purchased the M11 Monochrom.

I have been testing it for 3 days in my daily life and this day I used it for a client on a construction site. I am delighted with the result.

I know that the M11 with appropriate processing can achieve similar results. But knowing that I'm working with a monochrome in my hands allows me not to be polluted by colors. I am in a world where I remain focused on shadows, lights, contrasts. And that's what I like.

I also understand TomSchmitt 's reasoning, whom I thank. But you only live once. And not having a choice other than shooting in black and white, I find that it's a nice difference that goes with my photo projects.

Thanks again 🙏

For all the same reasons i will eventually buy M11M to have it with M11P  

[lct]

Recurrent question, i guess, but i don't recall the answer. Do digital colour filters work with mono cameras?

[mmradman]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Recurrent question, i guess, but i don't recall the answer. Do digital colour filters work with mono cameras?

How do you screw digital filter onto the lens?

[lct]

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

How do you screw digital filter onto the lens?

Are you serious or kidding?

[mmradman]

23 minutes ago, lct said:

Are you serious or kidding?

Don't know.

Care to explain what is digital filter, nowadays everything seem to be digital (computerised),  never seen or used one.

[Jeff S]

8 hours ago, lct said:

Recurrent question, i guess, but i don't recall the answer. Do digital colour filters work with mono cameras?

If you mean using color channels in post, then no, as there is no color array to start. But Photoshop does offer colorizing ‘tricks’ through use of neural filters. 
 

 

And there is another colorizing method, as described in my post # 7 in above linked thread. 
 

Jeff

[lct]

5 hours ago, mmradman said:

Care to explain what is digital filter, nowadays everything seem to be digital (computerised),  never seen or used one.

I was just referring to digital colour filters (is there another wording?) in Silver Efex. Here red filter with M11 + Skopar 21/4.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, lct said:

I was just referring to digital colour filters (is there another wording?) in Silver Efex. Here red filter with M11 + Skopar 21/4.

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The color filters don’t work due to lack of color channels, as I wrote.  Other software controls, which might still alter contrast, tonality, etc remain effective.

Jeff