Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[Lee S]

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2 hours ago, otto.f said:

+1, and with the Q 43 either

+SL3 (Same Sensor)

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[jaapv]

But different microlenses, Bayer filter and firmware. Which makes comparison impossible. The silicon only determines noise behavior and dynamic range. It is a monochrome analog device. 

[jaapv]

19 hours ago, Lee S said:

It’s not a feature, it’s a bug. Don’t see it with the Leica Q3 or Sony A7RIII etc. 

Using a camera like the Leica M requires a learning curve and a skill set. 

[Lee S]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Using a camera like the Leica M requires a learning curve and a skill set. 

Got it, the Leica engineers purposely left in such features so only the most distinguished gentleman with impeccable photography skills can use it properly.

Reminds me of trying to start an old car, turn the choke a tad to left, jut it to the right, pump the gas pedal thrice in ever increasing strokes, whisper to it ‘come on sweetness’ whilst turning the key, and it just might not freeze and take a correctly exposed picture without a purple tint.

Edited November 24, 2024 by Lee S

[Lee S]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

But different microlenses, Bayer filter and firmware. Which makes comparison impossible. The silicon only determines noise behavior and dynamic range. It is a monochrome analog device. 

Micolens yes but Bayer filter? Are you suggesting the tint issues is caused by the micolens design having to capture rays at steep angles on the edge? 

[lct]

What tint issue? I do like the colors of the M11 as they are since the little red oversaturation i’m seing is generally pleasing in my view and is easy to adjust in post if needed. BTW the sensor itself has probably little to do in the so-called magenta cast since the Sigma ftl has a similar if not identical Sony sensor and renders more "coldly" (is that English?). Interesting to compare the M11 color profile to generic ones from this viewpoint. I think i did this comparo in the past. I will retrieve it for those interested. For those struggling with white balance, may i suggest this little tool? Just kidding.

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[CDodkin]

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50 minutes ago, Lee S said:

Micolens yes but Bayer filter? Are you suggesting the tint issues is caused by the micolens design having to capture rays at steep angles on the edge? 

You need to look at the whole image pipeline - trying to guess which element may be contributing to the issue doesn't really get you anywhere. The pipeline includes the following key components which will impact WB:

Sensor Sensitivity: The M11's sensor might have a slightly higher sensitivity to red wavelengths compared to green and blue, leading to a magenta tint in images.
Color Filter Array (CFA) Pattern: The specific CFA pattern used in the M11 could influence the color balance, especially under certain lighting conditions.
Calibration Issues: Potential calibration inaccuracies in the camera's white balance algorithm could contribute to the magenta shift.

White Balance Algorithm: The white balance algorithm used by the M11 might have a tendency to shift towards magenta, especially in daylight scenarios.

It's been interesting to watch Fuji, and now Leica, grapple with the same daylight WB issue, both since switching to Sony sensors in their cameras. The length of time this has been going on (7+ years) would suggest that it's not a trivial problem to solve for the camera manufacturer!

[LocalHero1953]

I dip into this thread every five pages. Nothing changes, neither those posting nor arguments - just groundhog day.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Lee S said:

Micolens yes but Bayer filter? Are you suggesting the tint issues is caused by the micolens design having to capture rays at steep angles on the edge? 

The transmission spectrum of the Bayer filterlets has to be tuned to the spectrum of the IR filter and its coatings, plus conform to the desired colour rendering. This is a continuous development between successive models. which is an ongoing saga 

 

[jaapv]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I dip into this thread every five pages. Nothing changes, neither those posting nor arguments - just groundhog day.

The mute discussing with the deaf…

[CDodkin]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I dip into this thread every five pages. Nothing changes, neither those posting nor arguments - just groundhog day.

Opinion vs experience - lots of opinions - not much actual experience being shared.

But nothing changes???

Maybe you missed the page with the WB remediation process that actually solves the problem for everyone - as you dipped in and out...

 

[hdmesa]

27 minutes ago, CDodkin said:

You need to look at the whole image pipeline - trying to guess which element may be contributing to the issue doesn't really get you anywhere. The pipeline includes the following key components which will impact WB:

Sensor Sensitivity: The M11's sensor might have a slightly higher sensitivity to red wavelengths compared to green and blue, leading to a magenta tint in images.
Color Filter Array (CFA) Pattern: The specific CFA pattern used in the M11 could influence the color balance, especially under certain lighting conditions.
Calibration Issues: Potential calibration inaccuracies in the camera's white balance algorithm could contribute to the magenta shift.

White Balance Algorithm: The white balance algorithm used by the M11 might have a tendency to shift towards magenta, especially in daylight scenarios.

It's been interesting to watch Fuji, and now Leica, grapple with the same daylight WB issue, both since switching to Sony sensors in their cameras. The length of time this has been going on (7+ years) would suggest that it's not a trivial problem to solve for the camera manufacturer!

My GFX 100S didn't have the magenta tint at all. In fact, it seemed so neutral, you have people swearing by the older sensor as being somehow better because the 100S is too "clinical".

With the GFX 50S/R, adding a WB shift in camera that slightly favored green tint and warmer temperature solved the magenta issue for me. We just need that ability in firmware for the M11.

With the current retro film aesthetic (or at least what people seem to think that aesthetic was and now is), green/yellow shift is much more acceptable, making the M11 magenta tint stand out all the more. The M11 photos in cloudy light with the magenta tint look purple, and the ones in bright sunlight look too pink. Both appear unnatural to me, and not in a good way.

With the M11 firmware and freezing issues now mostly sorted, I feel like collectively we need to be emailing Leica asking for a solution to the magenta tint, and then regularly checking back with them for updates:

info [at] leica-camera dot com

I know we can work around the issue, but I would prefer a menu option to bias the WB myself at this point.

Edited November 24, 2024 by hdmesa
fixed weird paragraph spacing

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, CDodkin said:

Maybe you missed the page with the WB remediation process that actually solves the problem for everyone - as you dipped in and out...

Do you mean your myriad of posts promoting the Expodisc?

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The transmission spectrum of the Bayer filterlets has to be tuned to the spectrum of the IR filter and its coatings, plus conform to the desired colour rendering. This is a continuous development between successive models. which is an ongoing saga 

 

A hardware based reason for the magenta tint bias of the M11 only makes sense if Leica is using a shared Auto WB code across their cameras with the same base silicon. That would explain why the WB has no tint bias on the SL3 and Q28/43 but is thrown off on the M11.

Edited November 24, 2024 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Do you mean your myriad of posts promoting the Expodisc?

I don't think we all have anything to argue about here. Everyone seems to agree the M11 has a magenta tint bias. We can ask Leica to address the issue while at the same time be sharing ways to work around it. 

[CDodkin]

8 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Do you mean your myriad of posts promoting the Expodisc?

Promoting an actual solution that works - correct.

The M11 has no issue getting perfect WB when presented with a calibrated transmission target - it fails miserably when presented with actual daylight image data.

Edited November 24, 2024 by CDodkin

[LocalHero1953]

See y'all in five pages.

[Lev55]

Thank you for posting solutions. I hope the engineers at Leica will solve the problem so we are able the share jpgs straigt out the camera.

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[CDodkin]

2 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

See y'all in five pages.

Thank you for your contribution 

[junix]

28 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I dip into this thread every five pages. Nothing changes, neither those posting nor arguments - just groundhog day.

Thanks for the suggestion, I was going with a three pages interval but it seems five is the way to go. 😀

Now that the firmware is more or less stable, this magenta cast (that I personally see on some photos) is the last thing stopping me to give in my M10-R and move to an M11-P.. will loan an 11-P for a couple of days shoot side by side, test it myself and then decide.