Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[CDodkin]

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2 hours ago, Lee S said:

Went to the Leica store in London a few years ago. Took my SD card to get some pictures with an M11 
 

Purple tint is very evident in some of them. How can they get it so wrong metering off a sensor, WB/Tint is not a new thing. 

 

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Using AWB in the mixed lighting setting you show in this image, is always going to lead to some area of the image being of dubious WB - it's just not possible for a camera to decide which area of the composition to use for WB. The outside light, or the artificial illuminant in the store, or something in-between. In this case, if I wanted WB for the view outside, I'd walk up to the glass window, point my camera towards the light - put the Expodisc over the lens, and set custom WB in camera. Then walk back to the shooting position and take the shot. The view through the window would be white balanced correctly - the interior of the store would show significant WB shift due to the artificial illuminant used. This would be ok, as I'd made a conscious decision to set WB that way.

Edited November 23, 2024 by CDodkin

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[don daniel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb jgeenen:

 Please keep us updated. I however strongly believe that the observation of purple tendency has nothing to do with white balance, just with the way how the RAW to JPG converter is instructed to handle red and blue channels (hence calibration is a suitable way for correction). As you know (I posted it already)  I do not adjust the WB "tint" slider at all in post, I modify the red and blue channels by slightly lowering the mid levels to achieve a correction that can be applied to every image without negative effect (at least as far as I can tell) - regardless of lighting situation.

Yes, I am familiar with your approach to the problem and have tried it several times. However, I have reached a different conclusion. Contrary to what you write, for me, the change in colors with your profiling doesn’t work when artificial light or mixed light comes into play. On the other hand, if I ensure a proper white balance—which, oddly enough, is much harder to achieve with the M11 in natural light than in artificial light—I am completely satisfied with the color representation. For me, the issue clearly lies with a completely miscalibrated white balance. Now, the service technicians will have to solve that. I’ll keep you updated, but it might take a long time before the M11 is returned.

[jgeenen]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb CDodkin:

Completely incorrect. The camera is making a sub-optimal WB decision when using AWB, based on the available image data. This is passed on to post processing, and is also evident on in-camera JPGs. It not tied to DNG conversion. When presented with a neutral WB target, such as Expodisc, the camera makes an optimal WB selection, which is evident in both the DNG files for post processing, and in the in-camera JPGs. The firmware guesstimate of WB during AWB appears unable to optimally set tint, under certain conditions, even when it sets temp within expectations.

Sorry to object - I took many pictures of neutral gray cards and used the WB picker in camera to set the white point. While color temperature is correct then (within a margin of few percent compared to the color picker in Lightroom), the purple balance remains off. I don't have a magic Expodisc so I did not comment to your observations earlier and will not comment your statement.

 

 

[jgeenen]

vor 1 Minute schrieb don daniel:

Yes, I am familiar with your approach to the problem and have tried it several times. However, I have reached a different conclusion. Contrary to what you write, for me, the change in colors with your profiling doesn’t work when artificial light or mixed light comes into play. On the other hand, if I ensure a proper white balance—which, oddly enough, is much harder to achieve with the M11 in natural light than in artificial light—I am completely satisfied with the color representation. For me, the issue clearly lies with a completely miscalibrated white balance. Now, the service technicians will have to solve that. I’ll keep you updated, but it might take a long time before the M11 is returned.

Thanks - on mixed light and many modern types of artificial light, for sure it is up to the algorithm in camera to guesstimate a correct white balance, since all modes light sources simulate white light by mixing a few spectral colors. Whatever Leica does to your M11, I bet it will not improve the ability of your M11 to find a better white balance in artifical light.

[CDodkin]

1 hour ago, jgeenen said:

Sorry to object - I took many pictures of neutral gray cards and used the WB picker in camera to set the white point. While color temperature is correct then (within a margin of few percent compared to the color picker in Lightroom), the purple balance remains off. I don't have a magic Expodisc so I did not comment to your observations earlier and will not comment your statement.

 

 

I don't use reflective WB targets for this very reason - Expodisc is a transmission target and gets WB correct 100% of the time in-camera. With a reflective WB target, the color the Leica perceives is influenced by the target's surface properties, including its texture, material composition, and the specific wavelengths of light it reflects. With a transmissive target, the color the Leica sees is determined by the wavelengths of light that are transmitted. Transmissive targets, especially those made from high-quality materials, offer more consistent color transmission, resulting in less variation in perceived tint. It's challenging to produce a truly Lambertian surface when manufacturing a reflective WB reference card. 

Edited November 23, 2024 by CDodkin

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, don daniel said:

Yes, of course! However, the white balance chosen by the camera is also applied to the JPGs. And that’s where it becomes really tedious if it’s so far off. With DNGs, you can adjust it without any loss in quality. It’s an extra step, but the image quality isn’t affected. With JPGs, I can adjust the white balance afterwards as well, but then I can’t share the image immediately. Plus, the image quality suffers a noticeable loss.

Why would you use a Leica M camera to systematically share photos? A decent smartphone is far more suited to the task. 

[don daniel]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb jgeenen:

Thanks - on mixed light and many modern types of artificial light, for sure it is up to the algorithm in camera to guesstimate a correct white balance, since all modes light sources simulate white light by mixing a few spectral colors. Whatever Leica does to your M11, I bet it will not improve the ability of your M11 to find a better white balance in artifical light.

White balance in artificial light indeed is quite good, much better than in natural light. This sounds weird, but it is, what I see.

[hdmesa]

49 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Why would you use a Leica M camera to systematically share photos? A decent smartphone is far more suited to the task. 

I often shoot with both for that very reason. 9/10 times the photos of people are more flattering with my phone anyway.

@don daniel, when I do shoot to share JPEGs from the M or any camera for that matter, I shoot in a b&w mode. Leica b&w JPEGs are gorgeous. 

[Lee S]

2 hours ago, CDodkin said:

Using AWB in the mixed lighting setting you show in this image, is always going to lead to some area of the image being of dubious WB - it's just not possible for a camera to decide which area of the composition to use for WB. The outside light, or the artificial illuminant in the store, or something in-between. In this case, if I wanted WB for the view outside, I'd walk up to the glass window, point my camera towards the light - put the Expodisc over the lens, and set custom WB in camera. Then walk back to the shooting position and take the shot. The view through the window would be white balanced correctly - the interior of the store would show significant WB shift due to the artificial illuminant used. This would be ok, as I'd made a conscious decision to set WB that way.

Appreciate ‘yellow’ white balance is difficult for a camera to calculate with mixed lighting, that purple tint is crazy though. My M10 and A73 don’t randomly have such an extreme tint to green or purple, the M11 clearly does and it has to be a firmware issue. It also massively over exposed for a few shots in the Leica shop…. 

Edited November 23, 2024 by Lee S

[CDodkin]

1 minute ago, Lee S said:

Appreciate white balance is difficult for a camera to calculate with mixed lighting, that purple tint is crazy though. My M10 and A73 don’t randomly have a tint. It also massively over exposed for a few shots in the Leica shop…. 

Which only goes to emphasize that you need to spend time with a new camera in order to understand its feature set, and to get the most from it.

[Lee S]

3 minutes ago, CDodkin said:

Which only goes to emphasize that you need to spend time with a new camera in order to understand its feature set, and to get the most from it.

It’s not a feature, it’s a bug. Don’t see it with the Leica Q3 or Sony A7RIII etc. 

Edited November 23, 2024 by Lee S

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, Lee S said:

...It also massively over exposed for a few shots in the Leica shop…. 

Get out of the evaluative modes like the default Multi Field and the Highlight Weighted modes. They will never be consistent nor read your mind.

Use Center Weighted. Point the center of the frame at the windows to expose for outside, point it to the inside to expose for the inside, point it half on the windows and half on the interior to get a balanced exposure. All this using half press to lock the exposure and recompose of course.

[CDodkin]

26 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I often shoot with both for that very reason. 9/10 times the photos of people are more flattering with my phone anyway.

@don daniel, when I do shoot to share JPEGs from the M or any camera for that matter, I shoot in a b&w mode. Leica b&w JPEGs are gorgeous. 

Phone manufacturers are doing computational image processing to make those portrait shots look better out of camera than a standard digital camera. That's why people tend to warm to them immediately. This is (I believe) one of the contributing factors to people buying expensive cameras, like Leicas, and then being underwhelmed when auto everything mode doesn't blow them away. They're used to cellphone enhanced output, but don't realize what goes into making that shot instantly better.

[CDodkin]

3 minutes ago, Lee S said:

It’s not a feature, it’s a bug. Don’t see it with the Leica Q3 or Sony A7RIII etc. 

The exposure metering change or the magenta tint?

I see the magenta WB issue as a bug or limitation

The exposure metering changes are typically the user not yet being accustomed to the new metering modes, and not understanding how to use them effectively. This is not a bug.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, CDodkin said:

Phone manufacturers are doing computational image processing to make those portrait shots look better out of camera than a standard digital camera. That's why people tend to warm to them immediately. This is (I believe) one of the contributing factors to people buying expensive cameras, like Leicas, and then being underwhelmed when auto everything mode doesn't blow them away. They're used to cellphone enhanced output, but don't realize what goes into making that shot instantly better.

Exactly. If I shoot people with a traditional digital camera, I intend to refine and retouch the images later before sharing. So I use the phone to fire off quickies for sharing and the digital camera for a different level of result that I can share later.

[CDodkin]

3 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Get out of the evaluative modes like the default Multi Field and the Highlight Weighted modes. They will never be consistent nor read your mind.

Use Center Weighted. Point the center of the frame at the windows to expose for outside, point it to the inside to expose for the inside, point it half on the windows and half on the interior to get a balanced exposure. All this using half press to lock the exposure and recompose of course.

Back to my point on expectations set by modern phone cameras - people expect the Leica to have 'AI' capabilities to understand what the user needs/wants from exposure - when in fact it's still basically dumb compared to an experienced photographer, who would use the methodology you outlined above to nail exposure every time.

[hdmesa]

Just now, CDodkin said:

Back to my point on expectations set by modern phone cameras - people expect the Leica to have 'AI' capabilities to understand what the user needs/wants from exposure - when in fact it's still basically dumb compared to an experienced photographer, who would use the methodology you outlined above to nail exposure every time.

Right, the phones are delivering HDR results even if I shoot it in RAW mode, so the outside and inside of a room look well exposed. Another part of the problem is camera makers have fallen very far behind in this area. Olympus (from what I've read) did/does the HDR RAW merge quite well. I think the large amount of data generated by full frame and APS-C sensors is still part of the holdup, IDK.

[otto.f]

15 hours ago, Lee S said:

Don’t see it with the Leica Q3

+1, and with the Q 43 either

Edited November 24, 2024 by otto.f

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[Lee S]

17 hours ago, CDodkin said:

Back to my point on expectations set by modern phone cameras - people expect the Leica to have 'AI' capabilities to understand what the user needs/wants from exposure - when in fact it's still basically dumb compared to an experienced photographer, who would use the methodology you outlined above to nail exposure every time.

Regardling the Leica M11 purple tint issue I don’t think anyone has unrealistic expectations based on the latest and greatest smartphones WB/tint. 

Would be great it if could just be half as consistent in terms of tint and exposure as a 15 year old mirrorless camera of which the sensor has the same basic method of operation. Even my M10 which meters off the shutter is better. 

[Velo-city]

18 hours ago, don daniel said:

White balance in artificial light indeed is quite good, much better than in natural light. This sounds weird, but it is, what I see.

Same here on my M11. Even in mixed interior/exterior with window light WB seems pretty good, maybe on the warmer side but not obvious magenta, just something quite pleasing.

But outdoors though, it's another story.