Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[hdmesa]

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6 hours ago, Velo-city said:

If WB was the only issue with my M11, I'd probably just learn to live with it and use the workarounds - which as long as you're using RAW and happy to process every image (often manually/visually) then it's fine even though it's unacceptable at any price level in 2024.

But when I combine all the other faults/flaws with the M11 design and implementation (even ignoring the cost), I think I'm reaching the conclusion that I won't have mine in 2025.  I think long-term Leica users have kindly called these many issues 'quirks' of owning an M (or perhaps other Leica cameras too) but for me there's just something 'wrong' feeling about the M11.  Two unreadable files in as many weeks is also just such a red flag. The Q3 43 that arrived at the same time has a couple of flaws (slow startup time for one) but just somehow feels more robust and better implemented, certainly the WB seems OK.

Glad I tried it, and will probably try again on the M12 if this one goes, but the M11..... beautiful RAW files, and lovely to look at as an object, but too many other 'quirks' for me.

Unreadable files were an issue with the previous firmware. You've had unreadable files under 2.1.3? If so, you should definitely report that to Leica. I've not read of a single other person with corrupt files under 2.1.3, so either you have the worst luck on the planet, or you have some other issue at play like SD cards.

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[hdmesa]

8 hours ago, don daniel said:

Now it's getting even more interesting. You're not showing us a neutral setting in Lightroom (LR) here, but rather a corrected daylight setting. In LR, this is always set to 5500K temperature and +10 tint. This doesn't help me, because it always adjusts the temperature as well – which is often too warm (yellowish cast) for sunny weather and too cool (bluish cast) for cloudy weather. If you're feeling bold, show us a screenshot of the truly uncorrected "As Shot" setting. 😁 I'd be curious to see the tint value there.

I did show the setting for that same shot, only it was in Capture One only. I was just moving it over to Lightroom and setting both to Daylight to see what the respective programs do with the M11 DNG color. In any case, I'd much rather make a temperature correction than tint, as I find that much easier to adjust correctly. 

Here's that same shot in Lightroom with "As Shot" under Auto WB. I already posted the C1 result earlier. This shows tint of +20 in LRC, which is not bad, but +15 would have been better. Temperature as shot is slightly too cold to my liking.

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[hdmesa]

On 11/21/2024 at 7:43 AM, CDodkin said:

...No such issues using Expodisc and custom WB in Sedona last week

I ordered an Expodisc yesterday only to realize my M11-D doesn't have the custom WB function. So looks like I'm stuck either setting it to Daylight or continuing with Auto WB.

[pedaes]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

setting it to Daylight

That setting has always worked fine for me, and was recommended initially by two experienced photographers using M11's. Two of the many happy users who don't frequent forums with 'problems'.

[hdmesa]

46 minutes ago, pedaes said:

That setting has always worked fine for me, and was recommended initially by two experienced photographers using M11's. Two of the many happy users who don't frequent forums with 'problems'.

Prior to the D, I kept my M11s set to Daylight, then switched to Auto for indoor/night. I usually leave the D on Auto all the time because I like to stay out of the FOTOS app as much as possible.

[marchyman]

20 hours ago, hdmesa said:

LRC Daylight:

With Adobe Standard as your profile.  Bet it looks different if you select Adobe Color, etc.

[hdmesa]

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21 minutes ago, marchyman said:

With Adobe Standard as your profile.  Bet it looks different if you select Adobe Color, etc.

Sure it does, but the WB numbers don't change. For me, Adobe Standard is the best neutral starting point for edits.

 

Edited November 22, 2024 by hdmesa

[CDodkin]

4 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I ordered an Expodisc yesterday only to realize my M11-D doesn't have the custom WB function. So looks like I'm stuck either setting it to Daylight or continuing with Auto WB.

Wow - why would Leica delete that function?

[hdmesa]

16 minutes ago, CDodkin said:

Wow - why would Leica delete that function?

Minimalist nature of the D model I guess.

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I ordered an Expodisc yesterday only to realize my M11-D doesn't have the custom WB function. So looks like I'm stuck either setting it to Daylight or continuing with Auto WB.

Or using the Expodisk to set WB in raw conversion...

[don daniel]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

I did show the setting for that same shot, only it was in Capture One only. I was just moving it over to Lightroom and setting both to Daylight to see what the respective programs do with the M11 DNG color. In any case, I'd much rather make a temperature correction than tint, as I find that much easier to adjust correctly. 

Here's that same shot in Lightroom with "As Shot" under Auto WB. I already posted the C1 result earlier. This shows tint of +20 in LRC, which is not bad, but +15 would have been better. Temperature as shot is slightly too cold to my liking.

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That is exactly what I have expected. Seems pretty clear to me: Your camera shows magenta cast as well: +20 is much too high. And yes, it may be a little too cold. WB is completely off here. 

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, don daniel said:

That is exactly what I have expected. Seems pretty clear to me: Your camera shows magenta cast as well: +20 is much too high. And yes, it may be a little too cold. WB is completely off here. 

A few things to reiterate:

• I've had M11s that were way worse.
• I see examples in the M11 thread that are laughably worse.
• In Capture One, the Auto WB is off by a smaller margin – see my earlier post of the same photo where it was set in C1 to "As Shot" with Auto WB that you didn't have this same reaction to. 

But looking at this again more closely has caused me to change up my processing for my M11-D DNGs taken in midday light. Moving forward, I will use LRC and have it automatically apply the Adobe Standard profile and Daylight WB. That result seems to give the most accurate results for my M11-D with the least effort.

 

Edited November 23, 2024 by hdmesa

[don daniel]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

But looking at this again more closely has caused me to change up my processing for my M11-D DNGs taken in midday light. Moving forward, I will use LRC and have it automatically apply the Adobe Standard profile and Daylight WB. That result seems to give the most accurate results for my M11-D with the least effort.

This is helpful in most situations with natural light. Under artificial light, you can often use the result as it appears without needing to make any adjustments. However, this poses a challenge for people like me who prefer to share images immediately and straight out of the camera. That said, I think it’s clear what I need to do now. I’ll send mine in for calibration, as we’ve seen at least one instance here where this process was successful — so that the M11’s white balance now really does the job as it should. I’ll provide an update on the results.

[pedaes]

8 minutes ago, don daniel said:

like me who prefer to share images immediately and straight out of the camera

The comment you quote is about DNG's. You are presumably talking about jpegs, as DNG's are not intended to be shared straight out of camera.

Edited November 23, 2024 by pedaes

[don daniel]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb pedaes:

The comment you quote is about DNG's. You are presumably talking about jpegs, as DNG's are not intended to be shared straight out of camera.

Yes, of course! However, the white balance chosen by the camera is also applied to the JPGs. And that’s where it becomes really tedious if it’s so far off. With DNGs, you can adjust it without any loss in quality. It’s an extra step, but the image quality isn’t affected. With JPGs, I can adjust the white balance afterwards as well, but then I can’t share the image immediately. Plus, the image quality suffers a noticeable loss.

[jgeenen]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb don daniel:

I’ll send mine in for calibration, as we’ve seen at least one instance here where this process was successful — so that the M11’s white balance now really does the job as it should. I’ll provide an update on the results.

 Please keep us updated. I however strongly believe that the observation of purple tendency has nothing to do with white balance, just with the way how the RAW to JPG converter is instructed to handle red and blue channels (hence calibration is a suitable way for correction). As you know (I posted it already)  I do not adjust the WB "tint" slider at all in post, I modify the red and blue channels by slightly lowering the mid levels to achieve a correction that can be applied to every image without negative effect (at least as far as I can tell) - regardless of lighting situation.

What is the difference between adjusting the tint slider and adjusting the curves? Well, according to the histogram, the tint slider moves the red/blue curves in one direction and the green in the opposite direction. Modifying the curves keen the green untouched. This - I think - is the reason why curve adjustment is more generally applicable  than tint adjustment.

And it is the reason why I believe Leica behavior is not a result of poor white balance configuration but a general RAW to JPG conversation character that is applied both to DNG parametrization (and therefore used by Lightroom and others) and Leica's JPG engine (and therefore affecting the JPG output).

[Lee S]

Went to the Leica store in London a few years ago. Took my SD card to get some pictures with an M11 
 

Purple tint is very evident in some of them. How can they get it so wrong metering off a sensor, WB/Tint is not a new thing. 

 

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Edited November 23, 2024 by Lee S

[CDodkin]

15 hours ago, jaapv said:

Or using the Expodisk to set WB in raw conversion...

Yes, this would work well I expect - you'd take a ref shot of the expodisc over the lens at the start of your shooting, and then use that to set WB in PS/LR in post. Good work around.

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[CDodkin]

2 hours ago, don daniel said:

Yes, of course! However, the white balance chosen by the camera is also applied to the JPGs. And that’s where it becomes really tedious if it’s so far off. With DNGs, you can adjust it without any loss in quality. It’s an extra step, but the image quality isn’t affected. With JPGs, I can adjust the white balance afterwards as well, but then I can’t share the image immediately. Plus, the image quality suffers a noticeable loss.

If you use in-camera WB with Expodisc, you will get accurate WB on your JPGs, and can share immediately.

[CDodkin]

2 hours ago, jgeenen said:

 Please keep us updated. I however strongly believe that the observation of purple tendency has nothing to do with white balance, just with the way how the RAW to JPG converter is instructed to handle red and blue channels (hence calibration is a suitable way for correction). As you know (I posted it already)  I do not adjust the WB "tint" slider at all in post, I modify the red and blue channels by slightly lowering the mid levels to achieve a correction that can be applied to every image without negative effect (at least as far as I can tell) - regardless of lighting situation.

What is the difference between adjusting the tint slider and adjusting the curves? Well, according to the histogram, the tint slider moves the red/blue curves in one direction and the green in the opposite direction. Modifying the curves keen the green untouched. This - I think - is the reason why curve adjustment is more generally applicable  than tint adjustment.

And it is the reason why I believe Leica behavior is not a result of poor white balance configuration but a general RAW to JPG conversation character that is applied both to DNG parametrization (and therefore used by Lightroom and others) and Leica's JPG engine (and therefore affecting the JPG output).

Completely incorrect. The camera is making a sub-optimal WB decision when using AWB, based on the available image data. This is passed on to post processing, and is also evident on in-camera JPGs. It not tied to DNG conversion. When presented with a neutral WB target, such as Expodisc, the camera makes an optimal WB selection, which is evident in both the DNG files for post processing, and in the in-camera JPGs. The firmware guesstimate of WB during AWB appears unable to optimally set tint, under certain conditions, even when it sets temp within expectations.