Will the SL3 have a global shutter?

[SrMi]

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12 minutes ago, Richardgb said:

But eveything else cannot be equal - there's no such thing as a free lunch.

To take one example, higher resolution (from different sensors which were available at a given time, i.e. the same generation, and processed through the same on-board 'engine' and software) generally results in more noise (i.e. lower signal-noise ratio). Take, as an example, the Lumix S1 and S1R (or their Leica equivalents). Please read the test reports.

I am not familiar with Panasonic sensors. I assume the difference is similar to SL2-S vs. SL2 (different sensor technology).

If you compare cameras using the same sensor technology  (Nikon Z6 vs. Z7, Sony a7IV vs. a7rIV), you will not notice any difference in noise when compared at the same output size.

Looking the other way, the 50MP MF sensor is worse than the 100MP MF sensor because of improved technology, not because of lower resolution.

P.S.: Yes, the 24 MP SL2-S has better IQ than the 47MP SL2.

Edited November 12, 2023 by SrMi

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[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

My point was that you cannot have better IQ by picking lower resolution (everything else equal).

This begs the question: what is better IQ?

(Stands back and reaches for the popcorn)

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

This begs the question: what is better IQ?

(Stands back and reaches for the popcorn)

The only IQ element that depends on the sensor silicon is noise, which also defines tonality. Sensor toppings, as well as the camera's firmware, have an influence, mostly on color.

Giving noise dominance in IQ assumes that colors can be adjusted in post to whatever one wants, which is not always true.

[hansvons]

On 11/12/2023 at 4:17 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

I agree with the rest though that a global shutter does not sound like it is on the horizon soon for Leica...does not really play to their strengths.

Agreed. If you use a mechanical shutter, you don't need a global shutter. And even for video, a global shutter isn't as important as dynamic range. That's why the new Alexa 35 sports 17 stops of dynamic range (sic!) but no global shutter. A quick read-out is sufficient for most applications. Global shutter sensors will only have a future in high-end imaging when they show at least the same dynamic range.

[Olaf_ZG]

Call me stupid, but I don’t get the global shutter. First the naming, it assumes till now we had local shutters only. I checked, my shutter is for sure not made in Croatia.

On the serious side, who wants, needs 120beats a second: why not make a movie? People seem to forget that every additional image means additional time spend culling and processing.

To me, the art of timing seems lost, and with it, the art of composing.

[frankchn]

4 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

On the serious side, who wants, needs 120beats a second: why not make a movie? People seem to forget that every additional image means additional time spend culling and processing.

To me, the art of timing seems lost, and with it, the art of composing.

For certain shots you want in sports photography it is very useful, especially when combined with their pre-buffer mode. It makes ball-on-bat and ball-on-racket shots in baseball and tennis trivial. Culling is not a problem here -- find the shot with the ball on the bat, and delete the rest.

Edited November 13, 2023 by frankchn

[bags27]

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Better with flash synching, I think (I don't use flash, so just what I understand to be true).

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, frankchn said:

For certain shots you want in sports photography it is very useful, especially when combined with their pre-buffer mode. It makes ball-on-bat and ball-on-racket shots in baseball and tennis trivial. Culling is not a problem here -- find the shot with the ball on the bat, and delete the rest.

Pre-buffering is already possible with fast readout sensors (e.g., Olympus). 

I could imagine that a global shutter would be great for gapless frame averaging. Unfortunately, a9 III requires external software to merge the frames.

[Jipster]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:20 PM, algrove said:

Sony just announced a remarkable A9 III with global shutter. Its capabilities are impressive to say the least. It is 24MP FF stacked sensor, just right for me since who needs 60MP when we have used 24 MP cameras for years without complaint.

This could be revolutionary if Leica adopts this sensor. Imagine 1/80,000 shutter speed and flash sync without limit. Shoots at 120fps with no black out. Did I mention no black out.

Actually, there are lots of limitations to this camera when you read the fine print. It’s a show piece of what is certainly the future to say to the world “look at me”, not a camera I would want to buy or Leica to make. Not to mention the fact that except for 0.01% of shots of 0.01% of shooters, not really meaningful. But hey, marketing BS will still talk…

[SrMi]

In my book, the main drawback of a9iii is that its max DR will be lower than that of an APS-C sensor. It will work best where high ISOs are anyway necessary. 
The stacked sensors have much less drawbacks and can still eliminate mechanical shutters. Therefore, it does not make sense to me for Leica to use global shutter instead of stacked sensors.

[Jean-Michel]

Just wondering. What light intensity/aperture/ISO combination will it take to be able to expose an image at 1/80000 of a second? Neat, but how often does one need such a short exposure time?

[algrove]

7 minutes ago, Jean-Michel said:

Just wondering. What light intensity/aperture/ISO combination will it take to be able to expose an image at 1/80000 of a second? Neat, but how often does one need such a short exposure time?

When shooting into the landing lights of a jet airliner coming straight at you at hundreds of miles an hour. The bigger advantage is that you can run like heck to avoid being sucked into the jet engines since you rapidly got your shot.

Edited November 14, 2023 by algrove

[Photoworks]

Since the last Sony lanch event, I had a chance to talk to a few people at Sony.

Most people in the company didn't know this was coming, so I don't think other companies will get it any time soon. Leica must have been working on the SL3 for years already.

My first question was: Why they didn't have a new camera name for it? It is such a big deal and I think that most sony camera in the higher price range are going to get this tech in the near future.

I was testing the camera in an indoor shoot, and some night shots. the global shutter sensor on the a9 is already amazing. Framerate, speed, resolution and HighISO.
Be able to shoot with Flash at any speed it a big deal for many, and that is any fast flash, i have tested profoto. Banding is resolved to the most, this is something that the M11 drives people crazy.

Is the camera for me? there is no suddisfaction in photography with this camera, the fact that it pre focus pre takes photos and you can pick later takes the joy out.

It is still a sony. If one day it comes out in an SL body would be interested, it is a game changer.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, Jean-Michel said:

Just wondering. What light intensity/aperture/ISO combination will it take to be able to expose an image at 1/80000 of a second? Neat, but how often does one need such a short exposure time?

it is almost 5 stops over the 1/1000

Usage, some sports where you want to capture a full rotation of a person or birds in flight. The picture I did at ISO 12800 where impressive.

[Gavin G]

6 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Call me stupid, but I don’t get the global shutter. First the naming, it assumes till now we had local shutters only. I checked, my shutter is for sure not made in Croatia.

On the serious side, who wants, needs 120beats a second: why not make a movie? People seem to forget that every additional image means additional time spend culling and processing.

To me, the art of timing seems lost, and with it, the art of composing.

I personally thinking of this too.. we going spend more time to select which frame but not photography🤣

[LocalHero1953]

6 hours ago, Photoworks said:

it is a game changer.

It is a game changer for those who have problems with non-global shutters. That's a small sports field for a game changer.

[Bikie John]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It is a game changer for those who have problems with non-global shutters. That's a small sports field for a game changer.

I think it has a wider impact than that. Mechanical shutters are complex and fragile, and take up space in bodies. Electronic shutters have, at least up until now, had other problems, mostly as far as I can see related to readout speeds. If global shutter can solve those problems I can see it becoming the de facto standard, but that is still some way in the future. I am just glad it is Sony who have decided to stick the first public toe in the water and not one of the brands I use (Leica, Olympus/OM Systems) so I won't be tempted to dive in.

John

[Simone_DF]

16 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Call me stupid, but I don’t get the global shutter. First the naming, it assumes till now we had local shutters only. I checked, my shutter is for sure not made in Croatia.

On the serious side, who wants, needs 120beats a second: why not make a movie? People seem to forget that every additional image means additional time spend culling and processing.

To me, the art of timing seems lost, and with it, the art of composing.

It’s not just about fps. Other advantages of a global shutters include faster flash sync speed, no more led light bandings, no rolling shutter, silent operation. So it’s not only for sports, but for whoever happens to use electronic shutter in an environment with artificial lights, e.g. basically all light photography with a moving subject, think events, concerts, weddings, general night photography. This is even more true if silent shutter is a necessity. No more banding and rolling shutter effect is a big deal to many. 

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Hallo,

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[BernardC]

11 hours ago, Photoworks said:

it is almost 5 stops over the 1/1000

Going with the "sunny 16" rule, and the min ISO of 250 for this camera, we get an exposure of 1/250 at f:16 in full daylight. That's 1/1000 at f:8, or 1/32000 at f:1.4. Sony's fastest lens is a 1.2, so let's call that 1/40,000 at 1.2.

There are two ways to get to 1/80,000: you can bump the camera's ISO to 500 or above (which will provide much-needed head room in the highlights), or you can shoot near the equator where "sunny 16" becomes "sunny 22" on a clear day around noon. I guess you could also use it if you wanted your flash to overpower daylight in similar conditions, for aesthetic reasons.

The SL2 (and many other high-end cameras) can already do 1/40,000 with electronic shutter, with a wider ISO range, so your main use case will be wide-open daylight fill-flash mid-day near the equator with a 1.2 lens, when you've misplaced your ND filter (but not your powerful flash).

That's not nothing, but it also isn't much. My Leica III has a top speed of 1/500, and it hasn't bit me yet.

Of course, I'm not a professional sports photographer; few people are. Is this enough of an innovation to get a few high-end pros to switch from Canon and Nikon?

[Jean-Michel]

In my simple mind a global shutter is simply an on/off switch where all the pixels turn on or off all at the same time. That is way better than a mechanical focal plane shutter or even a leaf shutter. I imagine that the challenges in designing and manufacturing the computing elements to be able to view and record the image all at once are phenomenal, and quite the achievement. I also imagine that the global shutter will become a standard at some point, until then I shall expose by putting and taking the lens cap on and off 🙃