newbie M questions

[brickftl]

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I'm in the process of figuring out whether I want to trade my Q3 which I enjoy greatly for the M11 and one of the best or near better 28 or 35 lenses (I'm still figuring that out for my particular needs). Reasons I'm contemplating the switch are to experience the deliberate/organic experience of rangefinder manual focus, thinking about a shot instead of just pointing/shooting. I suppose I could achieve that same experience with the Q3 simply by switching to manual focus which I actually LOVE when shooting static objects. Plus there's something about the appearance of M photos (color/contrast) that appeals to me over images by my Q3. And finally for times when I really need spot on auto focus (such as for example when I shoot ballet performances) I've got a Sony A7RV whose AF blows that of my Q3 out of the water.

I intend to rent the M11 and whatever lens I think I'd want if I decide to switch systems, and then after shooting the M11 for a week I'll make up my mind whether or not to switch. Meanwhile here are some questions I've got.

1. Somewhere I read that certain (or all?) of the M cameras periodically need adjustment or calibration. Is that correct, and what's involved in getting that taken care of especially since there's not a Leica store where I live.

2. I'd love to hear about people who made a switch from the Q series to M series, what was there experience, and did they have any regrets afterwards.

3. I plan to do more research on zone focusing and other techniques to assist my street work, but am nervous how well I'll be able to get street images in focus as the decisive moment presents itself. I think I need to let go of my long held desire for tack sharp images if I switch to M11, but want images that at least appear relatively in focus when not pixel peeping. Any thoughts on this?

4. Finally if you have any thoughts about me making the switch based on what I said above, let me have it, you won't hurt my feelings.

Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide.

Irwin

IJF Photostream - brick (smugmug.com)

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by brickftl

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[la1402]

I have made the move to the M10 a few years ago, then the Q2 and now the M11. 

I love the haptics of the small camera and perfectly built lenses, and I love the results. But getting older, the AF is only one limitation. When you come from a mirrorless system with IBIS, the lack of stabilization also requires more care in your technique. Focussing takes a lot of experience but over the years, you will get a feeling for what is almost right. This will not happen in one week. Moving targets are a big challenge. 

I also have the A7RV which is much easier to get good result with. I mostly take the M11 now because I enjoy it more than the Sony, but the M it will never be my only camera. The M can also not replace the Q2 and it’s ease of use. But it’s is lovely in it’s awkwardness…

[dpitt]

1. Periodically is relative. The period can be anything from 2  to 50 years. I have M3's that still focus perfectly that have never been adjusted. Try to avoid excessive vibrations or rough treatment of the camera in general. My M9 is doing fine for the last 8 years.

2. No Q for me (yet). I switched from Nikon to an M8 years ago, and never looked back. I love being in control. After some practice with the M (a few weeks), I have the feeling that I am faster than with the Nikon. My old Nikon had a habit of acting up with AF just when it mattered. I hate losing a decisive moment because my camera decides to refuse to find focus on my subject or it focuses on a different meaningless thing in the frame and I only find out when I see it on my computer screen. Some things have improved with AI and focus tracking now, but that also brings extra possibilities for confusion when things do not go as intended.

3. Yes zone focusing helps sometimes. But the M can be faster than any AF system in some situations because it allows you to focus before the subject is even there. If you can predict (sort of) where your subject will be, you can focus accurately on that spot, and just wait for the subject to move in your focus zone. I shot a show with dolphins that way with my M8 once. It worked really well because they repeated most tricks (jumps and such) a few times. AF would have struggled to keep up IMO. Anyway, I found the satisfaction when everything works out as intended much higher with the M. You will lose shots with either system AF or not, but with the M you can take full credit for it. Also, I like tabbed lenses. With some experience you can focus almost exactly before you bring the camera to your eye, just by remembering the tab position for your most used distances.

4. If you like macro, long tele, and AF on a lazy day (yes, shooting with the M can be hard work) then the M will probably not be your only camera. The EVF will help with the first 2 for occasional use but with large lenses I much prefer my (also large) SL. And on a lazy day, I prefer my TL2 with an AF lens. Shooting with the M is hard work, but that is the whole point. It makes you think and see more before shooting away, and that improves the results you get. Just try any M for a while and see how it feels. Give it some time, not sure how long you can afford to rent the M11 in the US. My advice to you is similar to what I got when I was new to RF. Someone on the forum adviced me to buy a M2 (much cheaper 15 years ago) and see how that worked out for me before jumping in and buying the M8. I would not go so far today, but why not try a M(typ240) or M10 for a while? They will keep most of their value. If you want to sell them after 6 months or so, it will probably be much cheaper than renting it for that period and you will know how you get along with the RF. IMO If that does not work out for you, it makes no sense to consider a M11.

 

 

 

 

[brickftl]

44 minutes ago, la1402 said:

I have made the move to the M10 a few years ago, then the Q2 and now the M11. 

I love the haptics of the small camera and perfectly built lenses, and I love the results. But getting older, the AF is only one limitation. When you come from a mirrorless system with IBIS, the lack of stabilization also requires more care in your technique. Focussing takes a lot of experience but over the years, you will get a feeling for what is almost right. This will not happen in one week. Moving targets are a big challenge. 

I also have the A7RV which is much easier to get good result with. I mostly take the M11 now because I enjoy it more than the Sony, but the M it will never be my only camera. The M can also not replace the Q2 and it’s ease of use. But it’s is lovely in it’s awkwardness…

what is your take on image color/contrast SOC with the Q2 vs M11?

[brickftl]

5 minutes ago, dpitt said:

1. Periodically is relative. The period can be anything from 2  to 50 years. I have M3's that still focus perfectly that have never been adjusted. Try to avoid excessive vibrations or rough treatment of the camera in general. My M9 is doing fine for the last 8 years.

2. No Q for me (yet). I switched from Nikon to an M8 years ago, and never looked back. I love being in control. After some practice with the M (a few weeks), I have the feeling that I am faster than with the Nikon. My old Nikon had a habit of acting up with AF just when it mattered. I hate losing a decisive moment because my camera decides to refuse to find focus on my subject or it focuses on a different meaningless thing in the frame and I only find out when I see it on my computer screen. Some things have improved with AI and focus tracking now, but that also brings extra possibilities for confusion when things do not go as intended.

3. Yes zone focusing helps sometimes. But the M can be faster than any AF system in some situations because it allows you to focus before the subject is even there. If you can predict (sort of) where your subject will be, you can focus accurately on that spot, and just wait for the subject to move in your focus zone. I shot a show with dolphins that way with my M8 once. It worked really well because they repeated most tricks (jumps and such) a few times. AF would have struggled to keep up IMO. Anyway, I found the satisfaction when everything works out as intended much higher with the M. You will lose shots with either system AF or not, but with the M you can take full credit for it. Also, I like tabbed lenses. With some experience you can focus almost exactly before you bring the camera to your eye, just by remembering the tab position for your most used distances.

4. If you like macro, long tele, and AF on a lazy day (yes, shooting with the M can be hard work) then the M will probably not be your only camera. The EVF will help with the first 2 for occasional use but with large lenses I much prefer my (also large) SL. And on a lazy day, I prefer my TL2 with an AF lens. Shooting with the M is hard work, but that is the whole point. It makes you think and see more before shooting away, and that improves the results you get. Just try any M for a while and see how it feels. Give it some time, not sure how long you can afford to rent the M11 in the US. My advice to you is similar to what I got when I was new to RF. Someone on the forum adviced me to buy a M2 (much cheaper 15 years ago) and see how that worked out for me before jumping in and buying the M8. I would not go so far today, but why not try a M(typ240) or M10 for a while? They will keep most of their value. If you want to sell them after 6 months or so, it will probably be much cheaper than renting it for that period and you will know how you get along with the RF. IMO If that does not work out for you, it makes no sense to consider a M11.

 

 

 

 

buying a used M10 - great idea hadn't thought about that. Is the black/chrome body the least expensive, or another M10 even cheaper? And what do you think would be a good price that would enable me to sell (should I wish to) after say a month of shooting and recover most of what I paid - certainly saving me the cost of renting a M11?

[la1402]

32 minutes ago, brickftl said:

what is your take on image color/contrast SOC with the Q2 vs M11?

 

32 minutes ago, brickftl said:

what is your take on image color/contrast SOC with the Q2 vs M11?

I prefer the M11 overall, it has a much better sensor. But as often documented, AWB on the M11 has a strong tendency to magenta which needs correction. The Q2 was more a Point & Shoot, though jpg isn’t really one of Leicas strengths anyway. 

[dpitt]

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9 hours ago, brickftl said:

buying a used M10 - great idea hadn't thought about that. Is the black/chrome body the least expensive, or another M10 even cheaper? And what do you think would be a good price that would enable me to sell (should I wish to) after say a month of shooting and recover most of what I paid - certainly saving me the cost of renting a M11?

That is hard to say.  It all depends on how you want to do it, and how much risk you want to take. If you buy from a dealer, you will have warranty in case something is not functioning as it should. But, you will lose the dealer margin when you want to sell it. If you use a dealer, maybe you can make a deal to be able to upgrade to a M11 if returned within a month at a certain cost.

With my M2, that I bought to try out RF in general, I ended up keeping it. I still own it now and would not sell it because it is the camera that 'sold' me into the M system. I suppose you can not do that, the investment is much more with a M10 and even M(240). And digital bodies do not last this long (18 years and counting).

Cheapest way will be to buy a used M(240) in a private sale which is in good working condition. Cosmetics would not matter much to me in this case. You want to re-sell it anyway, and if you make an extra scratch by using it, it will not lessen the resale value. Keep away from beaten up items with visible dents or other big signs of rough use. You can also spend a few hundreds more and buy a near mint one. It will give some assurance that it will work as new, and if you manage to keep it in the same state, it will sell faster, but not necessarily  with less loss.
Loss on private buy and re-sell could be close to nothing if you take your time to study the market a while before buying and find a good price. The M(240) is only changing price very slowly compared to newer items like the M10. It would also be less affected if some new model is released.

Investment in a M10 would be higher. It is newer and some owners will maybe upgrade to the new M11 or M11-P (released last week) in the near future. This might affect price (go down) more than with the M(240). If you buy from a dealer, the margin cost will of course be higher too. If you intend to re-sell it in a month, maybe this is not the right time to do so. I am not sure. I think I would buy the M10 only if I would intend to keep it as long as I enjoy it, which could well be a year or more. Anyway, once you sell that one you will be very sure what will be your ideal M type.

In any case, I would stay away from items without documentation and prefer the ones with original packing. That is an indication it is a careful user who wants to sell it.
In both cases the all black versions seem to be more popular and maybe more expensive, but it is mostly personal taste IMO.

[Anakronox]

1. Put a 28mm on an M.
2. Stop down to f/8-11.
3. Set your focus point to 1m or 1.5m.
4. Get close.
5. You’re not close enough.  Get closer.
6. Take the shot.

[markc2]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:23 PM, brickftl said:

I'm in the process of figuring out whether I want to trade my Q3 which I enjoy greatly for the M11 and one of the best or near better 28 or 35 lenses (I'm still figuring that out for my particular needs). Reasons I'm contemplating the switch are to experience the deliberate/organic experience of rangefinder manual focus, thinking about a shot instead of just pointing/shooting. 



I just got thru trying a LS2-S and a Leica M 262. What you said about the thinking vs pointing/shooting, was SUPER apparent between these two cameras. I got my most enjoyable shot with the M, The LS2 felt almost stream of consciousness in its speed, I'm coming from a 501cm.  Handling the LS was WOW!! handling the M was please don't drop. What I wonder is when you put a M lens on the LS along with being able to look thru the lens would that change the game though?  Love these kinds of choices though 🙂 Good Luck!!

 

 

On 11/7/2023 at 1:23 PM, brickftl said:

 

 

[Lonescapes]

You'll find a variety of answers to the rangefinder calibration question. Some people will say they've never needed it. Others will swear the mechanisms are highly temperamental and it's exceedingly difficult to get them in excellent alignment without the help of a professional tech.

I've owned two Leica Ms. Both came to me second-hand. The first one never needed adjustment. The second one came horribly out of alignment (nice job, KEH!), but I self-adjusted it at the focus range where I do most of my work, and it has worked well enough for me since then.

As for using zone focus and rangefinder focus instead of the autofocus system on the Q, if you become quite adept at zone focus you can get the shot off as fast (or faster) than the AF system on a Q-series camera. But zone focusing is a technique that works best/fastest when you're shooting from the hip. It's a lot more challenging to develop the muscle memory needed to frame with your eye while judging your hyperfocal distance using, say, the position of your focus tab (as opposed to the visual confirmation of the focus distance engravings, with the camera down at waist level).

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Street photography owes much of its aesthetic to the lack of time to frame carefully. Many of the most intriguing compositions street photographers come up with are the result of having to make a quick guess about what the camera is pointing at, without raising it all the way to their eye. (You may also find yourself using the back screen much more often than the viewfinder, if zone focusing becomes your primary focusing technique. Which would, however, raise the question of why you wouldn't use a camera that's designed around shooting off the back screen, and just adapt Leica glass to it, if Leica glass is what you want to use.)

 

[brickftl]

I feel like Dorothy when she awakes from Oz and is back in bed surrounded by friends and family, and asked what have you learned? She says: if I ever go looking for my heart’s desire again, I won’t look any further than my own back yard. Because if it isn’t there, I never really lost it to begin with!

I decided I was unfairly looking for something that my new Q3 can't provide, so I picked it up with a whole new change of perspective. I did a walk around at the beach and shot mainly manual focus, and truly loved the feel of focusing the Q3 manually. Like my Q and Q2 before it, the focus ring is buttery smooth and combined with peeking and magnification, I had no trouble nailing focus even wide open. Yes it's not the same as RF focusing, but it seemed to suit me well. And of course when I wanted to focus while walking with the camera at waist level, it was a simple thing to touch the screen which snapped the image in focus on the point I touched.

So for now I've decided to abandon my thinking of trading the Q3 just to spend another $10K on a M11 and the 35 summiluix apo. Who knows, maybe I'll come back to my initial desire, but I won't do it before giving the Q3 a more than fair shot.

Thanks to everyone who provided insights!

Edited November 15, 2023 by brickftl

[kivis]

On 11/7/2023 at 3:23 PM, brickftl said:

I'm in the process of figuring out whether I want to trade my Q3 which I enjoy greatly for the M11 and one of the best or near better 28 or 35 lenses (I'm still figuring that out for my particular needs). Reasons I'm contemplating the switch are to experience the deliberate/organic experience of rangefinder manual focus, thinking about a shot instead of just pointing/shooting. I suppose I could achieve that same experience with the Q3 simply by switching to manual focus which I actually LOVE when shooting static objects. Plus there's something about the appearance of M photos (color/contrast) that appeals to me over images by my Q3. And finally for times when I really need spot on auto focus (such as for example when I shoot ballet performances) I've got a Sony A7RV whose AF blows that of my Q3 out of the water.

I intend to rent the M11 and whatever lens I think I'd want if I decide to switch systems, and then after shooting the M11 for a week I'll make up my mind whether or not to switch. Meanwhile here are some questions I've got.

1. Somewhere I read that certain (or all?) of the M cameras periodically need adjustment or calibration. Is that correct, and what's involved in getting that taken care of especially since there's not a Leica store where I live.

2. I'd love to hear about people who made a switch from the Q series to M series, what was there experience, and did they have any regrets afterwards.

3. I plan to do more research on zone focusing and other techniques to assist my street work, but am nervous how well I'll be able to get street images in focus as the decisive moment presents itself. I think I need to let go of my long held desire for tack sharp images if I switch to M11, but want images that at least appear relatively in focus when not pixel peeping. Any thoughts on this?

4. Finally if you have any thoughts about me making the switch based on what I said above, let me have it, you won't hurt my feelings.

Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide.

Irwin

IJF Photostream - brick (smugmug.com)

 

Renting is a great idea>