Infurating Lens Repair Experiences with Wetzlar

[pedaes]

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8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The problem

Sales increasing, new lenses being introduced, new cameras - given the most minimal 'failure' rate warranty work is only going one way additional to servicing the back catalogue. What you say makes sense in the short term but the issue will need addressing at some point. Would seem to be a good training role for retired techs if they can be induced back, and/or if Leica want to resolve the issue.

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[jaapv]

I’m sure that it is as much a headache for Leica’s management as it is a pain for the customers. 

[jaapv]

6 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I do not deny that there are serious problems at Leica Customer Care as far as times for repairs, postage handling and precise answering of questions are concerned. 

Though I do not really understand the chronology of events described in the original posting. For me it reads as if the items were dropped at Wetzlar and all the following communication was only by telephone.

That's not what I know.  Whether I drop something directly at the counter in Wetzlar or I send it in by post I always get a "Kostenvoranschlag" - an estimate of costs which describes the necessary works to be done. Only if I agree to this estimate in a written document with my signature they will start the repair. If I don't agree I'll have to pay 80,-€ for handling and they send it back to me.

So did you receive an estimate of costs in a written document? When was this? Shortly after you left the items in Wetzlar, or only months later? Did they tell you in this document  what they would do to repair your items and backstepped months later telling you it was not possible? 

If the estimate is agreed upon I get a confirmation for my repair with a number. Enclosed is a  link which looks like this: https://repair.leica-camera.com/service/rep_track_V2/index.html. With this link I can follow the progress of my repair, even if it takes a lot of time. 

Did you ever get a confirmation and a repair number? Did you get the link? 

If it all happened the way I described and you only got the information that the repair was not possible much, much later, there must be another serious problem with the people who first check the items sent in and are responsible for the estimate of costs. 

 

Precisely my multiple experience. I use the telephone to ask for clarification etc. 

[Stuart Richardson]

The old pro service did require you to submit proof that you were a working pro. I remember doing it. Kind of cynical that they took a free service for pros and made it a paid one for anyone though. That said, I bet that if you are one of their favorites (Ralph Gibson, Lenny Kravitz etc), you will not be waiting long. I use the gear as a pro, but most of my work is not time sensitive event work and I have enough redundancy to get by, but certainly it is something you have to plan for. My Leica service plan is a Panasonic S1…

[LocalHero1953]

I have always been sent a handwritten estimate for repair costs for me to agree to, but I have never been sent a link for tracking a repair job progress. I have always sent stuff via Leica Mayfair, but it is clear that Leica Mayfair has not been sent such a link either - I have to wait till they have received a reply to an email they send to Wetzlar - usually long delayed.

My experience is that Leica Mayfair is responsive. Leica Wetzlar......is not.

Why should anyone have to use a primitive telephone these days to get a response from Wetzlar? Aside from the argument that they can't find technicians (which I am not convinced by), perhaps someone could introduce Leica to a 21st century online repair tracking and feedback service that all customers are offered automatically.

Edited November 1, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Why should anyone have to use a primitive telephone these days to get a response from Wetzlar?

Personal contact is my preferred method of communicating.

[Greenhilltony]

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9 hours ago, jaapv said:

The problem is, there is no trained technical staff to be found. As simple as that. If you employ untrained staff you have to pull experienced technicians off their work to educate them, which would make the repair times even worse.

This problem is actually a maintenance problem of a maintenance team. They should have known it too well. That is Leica's responsibility since they are not a dead brand on the market. Even third-party repairmen are also trying to pass their knowledge and skills to the next gen apprentice, if they have.

[jaapv]

Maybe, but it is a general problem in Europe. It is near-impossible to find staff in all sectors of industry. 

[28framelines]

On 11/1/2023 at 12:10 PM, jaapv said:

The problem is, there is no trained technical staff to be found. As simple as that. If you employ untrained staff you have to pull experienced technicians off their work to educate them, which would make the repair times even worse.

There are, but they are 3rd parties that have faster turn around than Leica, but Leica decided to essentially defund repair efforts from anyone other than themselves by way of holding back supply. I’m sure there are more repair techs that could learn to repair them as well, but again, Leica has chosen to a) not add service staff, at least it seems based on wait times, and b) screw over the “little guys” of mom and pop repair shops who are trusted in the Leica community.

[tappan]

I had the opposite experience at Leica New Jersey USA. Brian, Kathy, Sarah, et al. 3 lenses and an M9. Service and CLA's. Adequate turn around times. Great work on my equipment, fair prices, excellent communication.
Mark Garfinkel

[earleygallery]

On 11/1/2023 at 7:06 PM, Anbaric said:

With Leica moving further and further into the luxury goods niche, perhaps they don't think that things like repairs are much of a priority?

 

Leica are aiming more for the type of wealthy customer who simply doesn't have the time or inclination to bother with repairs and will just go and buy another new item, disposing of the broken one. They even put labels on some products now giving advice on how to dispose of them.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by earleygallery

[Anbaric]

19 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

Leica are aiming more for the type of wealthy customer who simply doesn't have the time or inclination to bother with repairs and will just go and buy another new item, disposing of the broken one. They even put labels on some products now giving advice on how to dispose of them.

For something as precious as a Leica, maybe this?

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[Stuart Richardson]

22 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

 They even put labels on some products now giving advice on how to dispose of them.

 

That is almost certainly something mandated for electronics by the EU. I am sure Leica does not think of their high end cameras as disposable, even if their repair times are an issue.

[yanidel]

So the company producing a digital full frame camera is not able to train new technicians?

I don't buy it. Lack of commitment, that's all.

On 8/15/2023 at 11:01 PM, adan said:

Already answered. By the time of the M4-P, it was too late to make that choice.

The choice had already been made by default 9 years before, with the 1972 introduction of the 28mm Elmarit v.2. Keyed for 90mm lines. Done and dusted.

Changing it again for the M4-P would have made the existing 28s obsolete (or required them all to have new mounts installed). So the camera was designed to suit the existing lens mounts.

In 1972, a "75mm" lens was probably not even on the drawing table/computer screen, so not part of the possible combos considered.

Unless, of course, one thinks Leitz could see into the future and had a "road map" covering 10-25 years ahead. I don't think so, myself.

That was the exact era (peaking about 1976-77) when Leitz's "road map" (if anything) was to kill off the M system altogether, surrendering to the "SLR tsunami."

 

[hansvons]

10 hours ago, yanidel said:

So the company producing a digital full frame camera is not able to train new technicians?

This one of Germany‘s biggest problems to solve. In the next ten years, a huge chunk of highly skilled technicians are retiring and it‘s completely unclear where to source new staff, let alone find ways and finances to train them. As this is an already ongoing process amplified by an ageing population and recently by the pandemic (people retired earlier), Germany‘s automotive and all other high-end manufacturers are already been suffering. Leica is only a tiny fish in that story, and there isn’t much leeway in their business model for optimising automation.

 

[jaapv]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:11 PM, earleygallery said:

They even put labels on some products now giving advice on how to dispose of them.

 

Excuse me? That is a legal requirement in most civilised countries.

[jaapv]

19 minutes ago, hansvons said:

This one of Germany‘s biggest problems to solve. In the next ten years, a huge chunk of highly skilled technicians are retiring and it‘s completely unclear where to source new staff, let alone find ways and finances to train them. As this is an already ongoing process amplified by an ageing population and recently by the pandemic (people retired earlier), Germany‘s automotive and all other high-end manufacturers are already been suffering. Leica is only a tiny fish in that story, and there isn’t much leeway in their business model for optimising automation.

 

Not just technicians. If I want my house painted I have to stand in line. An appointment in three years...🫣

[jaapv]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:05 PM, tappan said:

I had the opposite experience at Leica New Jersey USA. Brian, Kathy, Sarah, et al. 3 lenses and an M9. Service and CLA's. Adequate turn around times. Great work on my equipment, fair prices, excellent communication.
Mark Garfinkel

The problem is certainly in the screwdriver staff. I recently sent in a TL 55-135, Intake, evaluation, getting the cost approved and sending out a (new) replacement lens was within two weeks - it would have been quicker if I had been quicker responding to e-mails.

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[RexGig0]

I can certainly understand a shortage of workers skilled in manufacturing and repairing lenses. The whole world seems to want to write code, and move computer mice about, or have multiple streams of “passive income,” but so very few seem to want to perform precise manual labor.

I would love to learn to repair lenses, as a second career, but, I live nowhere near Wetzlar, or Europe, or the Leica USA service center in NJ, and my aging right hand does not always do what my brain is telling it to do, which is one reason I retired from being a first-responder public servant. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by RexGig0

[Almizilero]

While I think what happend here is quite unexceptable from a professional brand (especially the lack of communication), I also think that we are part of the problem. Leica has become very popular and many people (including myself) got into the system im the last couple of years. Maybe they're just overwhelmed with their new popularity? To many new customers in a short time? No time to get a bigger, well educated team in a short time?

Add to that that many people just don't simply enjoy shooting and only turn to the service when they experience problems during real life situations. Instead, many spend the first two weeks with a new camera/lens with ever more complicated test setups that they find on the internet. Then they send in the gear if there is only a minute possibility of a a problem to get it fixed. The result is a long waiting line with probably only few “real“ repairs at all. I get that this stuff is expensive and should be perfect to begin with, but I guess you can find flaws in everything if you look long enough.

Just as an example: When I switched to Leica and sold my Sony gear, I had a couple of people who wanted to test a lens of mine before buying it. I had used it happily for years with no problems, but these guys didn't even take one real life shot with it, they set up intricate testing tools and told me that my lens was utter garbage. Funnily enough, one of them found a strong back focus while the other claimed it had severe front focus, so yeah. (Here I was thinking these front/backfocus problems were a thing of the past in the mirrorless world.) Don't know if they just wanted to get it cheaper or if all this testing just sucks the joy from photography... Or maybe it's easier to blame the gear if one doesn't immediately turn into Henri Cartier-Bresson after buying all the expensive Leica stuff.

This is not only a Leica problem of course, but other brands are probably better prepared for the workload.