Analog M are a huge success : 5K units in 2023

[colonel]

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19 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Who cares about Canon ? 
we are talking about 5K M6-MP vs 11-12K M11-M11 Monochrom. 
The ratio is incredible  

Futureproof M6 is certainly a better buy than futureless M11 😉

It seems many M8s and M9s are working fine, and the M240 was incredibly robust. I don't think an M11 is futureless. Many of the electronic canon and nikon AF film cameras are still in easy circulation. I have a Nikon F something and it works fine. It is true that a purely mechanical camera can be maintained forever (if you can find someone to do it) but for some people, the 60mp sensor on the M11 and its general operation could be a camera for life. In fact a second hand M240 or M10 could be a camera for life. the rest is just GAS .....

[nicci78]

3 hours ago, Matlock said:

I don't have any idea of the figures, I was just trying to indicate the difference in production levels of the various camera makers. Leica has a 1% share of the camera market of around 3.5millian. Film cameras make up around 3% of that 1% total so pretty small.

What I am trying to say is that film M cameras are more around 10-15% of Leica units than 1%. 
So it is not 1% of 1% ! 

If we read around the lines from both interviews we got Q and M are the best selling at around the same level. Way behind SL then almost non existent S. 
So 30% of the main line up is excellent for analog M. 
It may appeared that Leica is selling around the same amount of M6/MP than SL2/SL2-S. 
 

They are quite concerned about SL2 slow sales 

Edited October 24, 2023 by nicci78

[Matlock]

3 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

What I am trying to say is that film M cameras are more around 10-15% of Leica units than 1%. 
So it is not 1% of 1% ! 

If we read around the lines from both interviews we got Q and M are the best selling at around the same level. Way behind SL then almost non existent S. 
So 30% of the main line up is excellent for analog M. 
It may appeared that Leica is selling around the same amount of M6/MP than SL2/SL2-S. 

M cameras may account for 10-15% of Leica but FILM Ms account for around 3% of Leica production which is quite a different thing.

[Jdjdjdi]

Who cares

until they can make them with any sort of quality control the number could be zero 

[oldwino]

17 hours ago, Jdjdjdi said:

Who cares

until they can make them with any sort of quality control the number could be zero 

Or at least repair them in a reasonable amount of time. 

[jakontil]

Amazing what leica has done to prolong its M films longevity, let’s hope films being kept affordable and alive

[newtoleica]

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11 hours ago, jakontil said:

Amazing what leica has done to prolong its M films longevity, let’s hope films being kept affordable and alive

I think the affordability bit departed a while ago...

[logan2z]

5 hours ago, newtoleica said:

I think the affordability bit departed a while ago...

Color is a bit nuts, but black and white isn't bad.  And black and white are the colors of photography anyway* 

*So says Robert Frank, and who am I to argue?

[jakontil]

3 hours ago, logan2z said:

Color is a bit nuts, but black and white isn't bad.  And black and white are the colors of photography anyway* 

*So says Robert Frank, and who am I to argue?

I love the BW in films, ilford have been doing just fine keeping it affordable and fomapan still exist… that’s all i need in very honest opinion, color is just a bonus

[Fotoklaus]

Yes. FP4 is fine, HP5 is fine and i still got some orig. APX 100 and orig. AGFA Rodinal. A wonderful combination.

[newtoleica]

Kodak films are nuts though. tri-X has more than doubled in the past 5 years. I have a load in my freezer but…….

[logan2z]

13 minutes ago, newtoleica said:

Kodak films are nuts though. tri-X has more than doubled in the past 5 years.

That's why I've switched to Ilford HP5+ and FP4+.  Besides the price, I prefer the look of HP5+ to Tri-X.

[newtoleica]

45 minutes ago, logan2z said:

That's why I've switched to Ilford HP5+ and FP4+.  Besides the price, I prefer the look of HP5+ to Tri-X.

Unfortunately I feel the other way on this. Tri-x's high contrast roll off has always been 'my thing'.

[Borna]

Very interesting news, however - I have some speculations regarding the future: I am afraid that with the popularity of MP, M-A and M6 and specifically regarding to that they are most likely sold out everywhere that there is a price raise in the horizon. I mean if digital bodies goes for 9-10k, would not surprise me if we will find analog bodies for 7-8k within the future. 

Just my two cents. 

But I love that they are pushing analog in 2023. Amazing news

[Mr.Prime]

Don't mistake the 'glad they are pushing analogue' for evidence that they care about analogue. They are pushing it because they know people with money to burn will hand over their wallets - nothing more.

[hansvons]

22 hours ago, Mr.Prime said:

Don't mistake the 'glad they are pushing analogue' for evidence that they care about analogue. They are pushing it because they know people with money to burn will hand over their wallets - nothing more.

This is quite an assumption. Leica was the only camera manufacturer that didn't abandon film for good, nor did it globalise its entire manufacturing. Both would have cut down costs and increased revenues for the stakeholders. They did not. 

You cannot run a company that sells goods no one needs on greed and quick money. You have to live what you say, stick to it and do so with a long breath. Otherwise, you'll lose authenticity. For a company that sells premium products in a difficult market, losing authenticity is the recipe for a quick death. 

Leica sponsors exhibitions and supports young and aspiring photographers from diverse backgrounds with diverse stories in their work. Keeping film is one of these measures to keep the zeitgeist and the art crowd around. Without the film Ms (now three models!) Leica would lose a quintessential gene in the brand code. The M6-neu success corroborates that.

[bags27]

On 10/26/2023 at 4:19 AM, newtoleica said:

Kodak films are nuts though. tri-X has more than doubled in the past 5 years. I have a load in my freezer but…….

Kodak just actually lowered the prices of some of their 120 color films. 

[bags27]

On 10/23/2023 at 3:32 PM, ymc226 said:

I rediscovered the beauty of 120 negatives after getting rid of all my Hasselblad (203FE, 905 SWC) about 3 years ago.  Now back to film but with Rolleiflex TLRs 2.8Fs and 3.5Fs.  The 3.5F Planar is crazy sharp and shooting both Kodak Portra and Tri-X, I don't think I can go back to digital except for travel when I don't want to deal with the hassle of airport X ray/CT scanners.  I do use my Leica MPs but much less than the TLRs which are just as quiet, take only 12 shots so I get to develop the rolls more quickly and are just beautiful to scan.  Feeling the "mechanical" aspect that endeared me to film cameras is even stronger with the Rolleis than with my M3 or M2s.  Had to give up my darkroom for prints as water usage would have been too wasteful here in SoCal.

I have a Rolleicord vb(ii) with a Xenotar lens that is also insanely sharp. It's a little toy, even compared to the Flex, and it's wonderful to travel with. 

I sold all 3 of my Leica digital cameras 3 or 4 years back and have only shot film (mainly Mamiya 7 and Blad 500 c/m in 120; M4-P in 135). But will buy an HB 907x eventually as a digital back for the Blad for international travel. It's getting tedious to worry about film through airports.

[Mr.Prime]

2 hours ago, hansvons said:

This is quite an assumption. Leica was the only camera manufacturer that didn't abandon film for good, nor did it globalise its entire manufacturing. Both would have cut down costs and increased revenues for the stakeholders. They did not. 

You cannot run a company that sells goods no one needs on greed and quick money. You have to live what you say, stick to it and do so with a long breath. Otherwise, you'll lose authenticity. For a company that sells premium products in a difficult market, losing authenticity is the recipe for a quick death. 

Leica sponsors exhibitions and supports young and aspiring photographers from diverse backgrounds with diverse stories in their work. Keeping film is one of these measures to keep the zeitgeist and the art crowd around. Without the film Ms (now three models!) Leica would lose a quintessential gene in the brand code. The M6-neu success corroborates that.

Leica has had many brushes with death. They have looked at lower cost options before such as when they outsourced to ELCAN for the M4 to cut costs in the past but their customer base didn't necessarily like that idea. They had joint ventures with Minolta and had to pull the plug when the CL type cameras threatened to eat the lunch of their M business. They went into the SLR business for awhile, also with help from Minolta but this didn't last. The issue is that M film cameras are a very narrow niche and to play into this niche they know all too well what their core customers are about - prestige, designed and made in Germany using traditional materials and methods. The way to exploit such a niche is with high prices. I don't know ifthere's a lot of elasticity in this niche area, can lower prices really unlock enough additional sales volume to result in higher overall profits ? Anyhow, this niche is all about showing love for film in order to milk the customer based. If they were truly wanting to support analogue why limit themselves to some old film M's, e.g. they don't make a film scanner for example. 

I don't think their strategy is simply about the film niche of course, it's a halo product for them - it is what defines the Leica mythology and attracts people to the brand where they hope for sales of their digital cameras. It's why Toyota sells sports cars but people really buy their SUVs. It's not because Toyota cares about sports racing, they care about profits. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[250swb]

On 11/14/2023 at 8:50 PM, Mr.Prime said:

Don't mistake the 'glad they are pushing analogue' for evidence that they care about analogue. They are pushing it because they know people with money to burn will hand over their wallets - nothing more.

I think you are right. There isn't any ambition in the release of film cameras since the MP in 2002, Leica are just digging out the old blueprints and carrying on as if nothing happened. The M7 is the last film Leica that showed ambition and innovation. And when the MP (nice camera that it is) went on the market the competition had just released a camera capable of manual metering and exposure, automatic exposure, and which could work if necessary without batteries at all manual speeds in the shape of the Nikon FM3a. For the last film camera a company was likely to build that was true ambition and innovation to make it the best ever, and Nikon didn't even need to dub it 'mechanical perfection' because it was never doubted that it would be by photographers. Imagine a film M with such a shutter (and build quality), there would be scenes of people climbing over each other to get to the counter first.

Edited November 16, 2023 by 250swb