M11 service problems: a sign of bigger underlying issues

[LukeTheHappy]

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Thank you, Al, Ian and la1402 for your replies. I am a prosumer photographer (my work can be found here) who is time by time also asked to shoot events. I have decided to keep along with a new Leica, also one Fuji body and two lenses (X-Pro3, 23/1.4 WR and Viltrox 75/1.2). Also thanks on the hints about Foto Goerlitz - I have noticed they are quite expensive, but they seem to have everything on stock and as an EU citizen I don't need to pay e.g. import cost and everything is in basically. Some sellers on eBay especially from Hong-Kong and Japan who also have a good reputation there do have interesting offers too but with import cost to EU (customs, VAT), I am plus minus on Goerlitz prices. Anyway, I think my plan is clear now: as much clean M11 as possible, try to avoid first production year, at least with 6-12 months warranty and preferably sold by authorised reseller.

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[newtoleica]

Dear Lukas, looking at your work I think the M will suit you, though it’s always wise to have an alternative AF camera if you need to shoot events. Do carefully read the differences between the 10-P/R and the 11. I chose to get a 10-P instead as it suited me better for a whole raft of reasons. I think it’s a perfectly valid choice to get a 10 series over an 11. The one I got had been serviced by Leica (though interestingly they had had it three times. Once to replace the LCD, which had been scratched, back straight away to reattach the leather which was crooked and back immediately again to reattach the Wi-Fi antenna which had been left disconnected….all be previous owner). It’s been perfect in my year of ownership. 

[fotografr]

21 hours ago, LukeTheHappy said:

Hello all,

First of, I am happy to join the Leica Forum here & thank you for this opportunity to post my situation here. Currently I am not a Leica owner yet, but I am on the verge of selling almost all my current gear (Nikon and partially Fuji X system) to get into Leica M family and my original plan has been to purchase used M11 from an authorized reseller. I am working for a global tech company which has their HQ near the 'Foto Goerlitz' authorized reseller and during my next business trip to our HQ in Germany I was planning to buy one. But after reading lot of comments on the recent quality issues and also this thread, I am really becoming unsure about my original intent. Lot of people are reporting all kinds of issues with M11, mostly mechanical (rangefinder misalignment) and software related (freezing, long startup times, weird shutter release behaviors, overexposed or underexposed images) and these facts have started a process of reconsideration of my plans. TBH, initially I was planning to get any digital M and just two lenses. But when turned back, there was almost nothing to select from: M8 half frame, M9/M240 sensor corrosion/dead horizontal pixels issues, currently the issues of M11... So for me eventually only M10-R, M10-P seemed most 'safe' Ms to get. There is a major roadblock in my brain which I can hardly control and which is saying it's completely ridiculous to give up top-of-the-line Nikon and Fuji gear which never saw a service center over those almost 10 years to get one camera which - due to those several issues - may fail at the most unwanted moments. What I found interesting also is that while newest electronic models have quiet fast repair times at Wetzlar (few weeks), older mechanical Ms require repair times in the units of months so this leads me into conclusion that people who were building the brand over last decades and who were helping Leica to be understood as the showcase of world-class German engineering are simply gone while their knowledge and skills were transferred onto young people only partially. I can also see this in my country (Czechia) that more and more younger people are avoiding study of technical fields in our universities and they rather prefer human studies. For the company which mostly relies on golden hands, top of the notch hand made products and extraordinary mechanical perfection built by one's hands will be the lack of skilled mechanical engineers more and more critical. Anyway, I will travel to Foto Goerlitz to see what they have in stock now and hopefully they will be also able to openly discuss on these things and I will see if I bring home an M11 or M10R/P.

For what it's worth, I've been using the M10-R and M10M (two of each) for more than three years and they have worked flawlessly. No freezes, no bad frames, decent battery life. I couldn't be happier. One caveat; I have never used Live View with any of them. I have no idea if that is a contributor to some reported problems but it's my opinion that anything that causes additional heat buildup in the camera is best avoided. 

[Herr Barnack]

5 hours ago, fotografr said:

For what it's worth, I've been using the M10-R and M10M (two of each) for more than three years and they have worked flawlessly. No freezes, no bad frames, decent battery life. I couldn't be happier. One caveat; I have never used Live View with any of them. I have no idea if that is a contributor to some reported problems but it's my opinion that anything that causes additional heat buildup in the camera is best avoided. 

@fotografr I am starting to think that perhaps overheating is the key to a lot of the M11 issues.  That, and rapid fire shooting that can logjam the buffer (my M240 would get log jammed, but my M-P 240 with 2x the buffer size never has log jammed on me).

It also seems that the Leica FOTOS app causes some users problems.

These are just conclusions that I have come to based on reading user experiences as posted on this forum - not based on personal experience.

[Simon644]

On 10/14/2023 at 4:56 PM, charlesphoto99 said:

Leica service has been an issue for decades now, or at least since I started shooting them in 1996. The US service being of especially poor quality. I know that doesn't make you feel any better, but just know that you are not alone. 

They (the Mayfair branch) saw to my Summilux repair within two months including the trip to Wetzlar. Not too bad at all and the cost wasn’t horrific.

[Herr Barnack]

On 1/6/2024 at 10:57 AM, Al Brown said:

You must have gotten one of three that were 100% in order. Lucky man.

He got one of the three secret M11-F cameras (F = functional) 🙄 .

[username]

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On 11/9/2023 at 12:19 PM, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

Leica have now swapped my M11 for a new one (...)  Here’s hoping the new one behaves better

Good grief, this thread has been truly painful to read.. thanks everybody for sharing, though!

Patrick I'm hoping you (and of course everybody else that had issues) were able to go back to actually enjoying your camera in the meantime ✌️

Here's hoping things will improve in 2025.. 

[Tseg]

Leica can go the Sony route... my 12 year old RX1 (fixed FF lens) has never had its sensor cleaned and has about 6 medium sized and 6 small sized dust spots.   If I send to Sony the "cleaning" cost is $1K.   Apparently they throw out (replace/refurbish) the lens/sensor combo and replace it with a new/refurbished one.

[colonel]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:14 PM, LukeTheHappy said:

Hello all,

First of, I am happy to join the Leica Forum here & thank you for this opportunity to post my situation here. Currently I am not a Leica owner yet, but I am on the verge of selling almost all my current gear (Nikon and partially Fuji X system) to get into Leica M family and my original plan has been to purchase used M11 from an authorized reseller. I am working for a global tech company which has their HQ near the 'Foto Goerlitz' authorized reseller and during my next business trip to our HQ in Germany I was planning to buy one. But after reading lot of comments on the recent quality issues and also this thread, I am really becoming unsure about my original intent. Lot of people are reporting all kinds of issues with M11, mostly mechanical (rangefinder misalignment) and software related (freezing, long startup times, weird shutter release behaviors, overexposed or underexposed images) and these facts have started a process of reconsideration of my plans. TBH, initially I was planning to get any digital M and just two lenses. But when turned back, there was almost nothing to select from: M8 half frame, M9/M240 sensor corrosion/dead horizontal pixels issues, currently the issues of M11... So for me eventually only M10-R, M10-P seemed most 'safe' Ms to get. There is a major roadblock in my brain which I can hardly control and which is saying it's completely ridiculous to give up top-of-the-line Nikon and Fuji gear which never saw a service center over those almost 10 years to get one camera which - due to those several issues - may fail at the most unwanted moments. What I found interesting also is that while newest electronic models have quiet fast repair times at Wetzlar (few weeks), older mechanical Ms require repair times in the units of months so this leads me into conclusion that people who were building the brand over last decades and who were helping Leica to be understood as the showcase of world-class German engineering are simply gone while their knowledge and skills were transferred onto young people only partially. I can also see this in my country (Czechia) that more and more younger people are avoiding study of technical fields in our universities and they rather prefer human studies. For the company which mostly relies on golden hands, top of the notch hand made products and extraordinary mechanical perfection built by one's hands will be the lack of skilled mechanical engineers more and more critical. Anyway, I will travel to Foto Goerlitz to see what they have in stock now and hopefully they will be also able to openly discuss on these things and I will see if I bring home an M11 or M10R/P.

An honest sharing approach.

I have shot alot of Sony, some Nikon and some Fuji, and I always use my Ms far more. But it is horses for courses, Ms are not good for twitch shooting, long telephoto and the face recognition is terrible LOL

I would get an M camera and lens first, use it, and then decide how much you like it, before you dump anything.

The M240 and M10 series are highly reliable. Rangefinder misalignment can occur on any M, but became rarer with the M240 and M10. If you buy a second hand camera you will see very quickly, or can even test in the shop, if aligned. I do a 50mm f1.4/1.5 test close (e.g. on a middle key on a computer keyboard) , infinity/long distance and do the same with a second lens, which could be 50mm or 35mm. Certain misalignments can be adjusted easily by the user, some need to go back to Leica, in any event, as a newbie, I would not recommend tinkering with the rangefinder yourself.

The benefit of a used M240 or M10 series is that if you get a decent deal, they will not depreciate if you decide to sell them (bar any scratches or dents you make yourself !!). Saying that, there are many M11s and M11-Ps on the used market, and if you look around and wait to pounce, there are many surprisingly good deals out there. For example I see M10-Rs on average at the same or higher cost then M11s can pop up at.

Lastly, once bitten, the M bug is for life, not just the holiday season

Good luck!

 

Edited December 18, 2024 by colonel

[Knightspirit]

While I haven't read this entire thread - I will say that I have had this issue on occasion with my M11 not recognizing the lens attached. I have found that cleaning the code read sensor on the body with a micro cloth always fixes it. Those sensors can get a little smudge on them and then they get wanky. ALSO - and even more importantly - check to see off that sensor isn't cracked. MINE IS. It still reads coded lenses accurately when clean - so I haven't attempted to get any repairs done on it, but it will on occasion read a NON coded lens as though it is a coded one! Cleaning fixes this 99% of the time. With repairs at Leica taking so long and not being as effective as one might expect - I would look at a third party repair service to take a look at the problem and see what they think. The shutter issue sounds bizarre - especially considering that it is basically "working" - just not sounding like it is working!

As for the coding - if it were me - I would just turn the coding off and set the lens manually and call it a day. Some things just aren't worth a three month wait if there is a work around. Not what you paid for, but the reality...

[username]

3 hours ago, Knightspirit said:

Not what you paid for, but the reality...

..Leica, in a nutshell 🙂

[colonel]

11 hours ago, username said:

..Leica, in a nutshell 🙂

I wouldn’t extrapolate. I have had perfectly reliable M6, M7, MP, M240, M10, Q, Q2, Q3, D-lux 109, 7 and 8 cameras and a whole bunch of lenses. More reliable and robust than the competition in general. 

[JNK100]

3 hours ago, colonel said:

I wouldn’t extrapolate. I have had perfectly reliable M6, M7, MP, M240, M10, Q, Q2, Q3, D-lux 109, 7 and 8 cameras and a whole bunch of lenses. More reliable and robust than the competition in general. 

I agree - I have /had five - all without issue inc

an M11.

Nothing to see here 

[LocalHero1953]

All my Leica cameras have been problem-free: M9, M240, SL, CL, TL2 (x2), SL2, Q2, and still-owned SL2-S, Q3 43, MP (as have my M2, M3, and still-owned M4, all bought well used).

All my Leica lenses (too many to list, though most not still owned) have been problem-free apart from three: Apo-Summicron-M 90 (bought used, focus calibration), Apo-Summicron-SL 90 (stiff focus ring) and Apo-Summicron-SL 75 (died during firmware update).

Overall I don't have an issue with reliability of Leica equipment. I do have a problem with Leica repair times and communication.

[username]

On 12/19/2024 at 9:17 AM, colonel said:

I wouldn’t extrapolate.

That comment was written a bit tongue-in-cheek - hence the smiley 🙂

 

Quote

More reliable and robust than the competition in general. 

Happy to hear you're having so little problems, but that statement is just silly, c'mon.

If it were true that Leica's are "more robust and reliable than the competition" a lot more pro's would use them, simple as that.
 

[username]

On 12/19/2024 at 12:18 PM, JNK100 said:

I agree - I have /had five - all without issue inc

an M11.

Nothing to see here 

Nothing to see if you're closing your eyes 💁‍♂️

There's a lot of people having problems, good for you that you're not one of them.

Pretending the issues don't exist is just ignorant.

Have you actually read this thread (or the dozens of others)? 
Do you really think all these people just make these stories up, because they have nothing better to do with their time?

[pedaes]

1 hour ago, username said:

Pretending the issues don't exist is just ignorant.

You write like a teenage Troll.  Are you a teenage Troll?

Edited December 20, 2024 by pedaes

[LocalHero1953]

It's never a problem finding username on the forum - just look for a thread reporting a problem with a Leica item.
But we must make allowances - he/she doesn't have any Leicas of their own to complain about.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[pedaes]

6 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

he/she doesn't have any Leicas of their own

So true! If they did we would see lots and lots of lovely images instead of this rubbish.

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, username said:

That comment was written a bit tongue-in-cheek - hence the smiley 🙂

 

Happy to hear you're having so little problems, but that statement is just silly, c'mon.

If it were true that Leica's are "more robust and reliable than the competition" a lot more pro's would use them, simple as that.
 

I suspect it's rather that on top of the advantages of autofocus that a dSLR/mirrorless has for rapid fire, mission critical work, it helps that a Canon R5 mk2 with a 50mm 1.4 lens is £6k new rather than £12k. With that differential magnified for every lens. And for a working photojournalist/event/sports photographers a load are going to want access to zooms and practical telephotos. The number of people able to make their living from documentary photography is very small indeed. Many of the more famous professional photographers with a Leica demonstrate this by running courses to supplement income. Or maybe they do it for the love of other photographers😂