Which M to get?

[hansvons]

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I was in your shoes and started the M film journey with an M4P bought freshly serviced because I thought I didn’t need a meter. It‘s a brilliant camera but with 35mm you are not aiming for the best possible quality (that’s what the MF Rollei is for) but for the best decisive moment. That means quick handling and fast decision-making. A meter helps there a lot. That’s why I added an M6. At some point I might sell the M4P and get an M6-Neu instead. 

If you are a collector, there‘s a never-ending universe of M Leicas to explore with myriads of Sondermodellen, finishing modes and whatnot that can reach preposterous scales. 

But if you just want to take images, the M6 is the most logical choice. There‘s a reason why the M6 was back in the day the pinnacle for range-finder-using pros and why it’s still so highly sought after. The new M6 took a bit of the pressure off the used market, which is a good thing. 

If you take shooting 35mm film seriously, you will inevitably end up with two bodies because there’s always the need for a high-speed B&W film when your camera is loaded with ISO 200 colour and still 15 frames waiting to be exposed. 

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[Ko.Fe.]

2 hours ago, hansvons said:

I was in your shoes and started the M film journey with an M4P bought freshly serviced because I thought I didn’t need a meter. It‘s a brilliant camera but with 35mm you are not aiming for the best possible quality (that’s what the MF Rollei is for) but for the best decisive moment. That means quick handling and fast decision-making. A meter helps there a lot. That’s why I added an M6. At some point I might sell the M4P and get an M6-Neu instead. 

If you are a collector, there‘s a never-ending universe of M Leicas to explore with myriads of Sondermodellen, finishing modes and whatnot that can reach preposterous scales. 

But if you just want to take images, the M6 is the most logical choice. There‘s a reason why the M6 was back in the day the pinnacle for range-finder-using pros and why it’s still so highly sought after. The new M6 took a bit of the pressure off the used market, which is a good thing. 

If you take shooting 35mm film seriously, you will inevitably end up with two bodies because there’s always the need for a high-speed B&W film when your camera is loaded with ISO 200 colour and still 15 frames waiting to be exposed. 

Depends from what era real use is. 

From 2012:to 2020 I used film  RF cameras daily.

I used BW film rated as 1600 or 3200 from sunny morning to no sun time. Modern black and white film has huge latitude. Last available Kodak, Fuji c-41 ain't really different.

If not confident,  different stops filters could be used. Or just vND filter with clear dial. 

[jakontil]

7 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

@250swb though the m10m might be redundant (as the sl can be converted), to me it is not. I really dislike the options I have when converting from color, which makes me indecisive and spending more time behind a computer than I like. So, the monochrom stays.

Regarding niche, you are maybe very right. I have three bases covered: digital bw, digital color and film. Maybe a film leica is redundant for me.

but then, the question from @jakontilis a good one. I quess I would like to have a cam for life. Sounds may be stupid. Till now, every piece of equipment has been sold for upgrades (wise or not), and may be it is just nice to have a piece of kit what becomes part of you.

may be i am sentimental, till now, i am not really material, no cars, no watches, no jewelry. All belongings are to be disposed, except for my (digital) negatives, books and music (though with streaming, even here I don’t care).

may be i just am getting old and want to settle down.

Getting M film, definitely you are on the right tracks, some probably outlive us, and good thing is, u cant upgrade like digital way, but may b you will add more to your arsenal 

 

this is getting fun

[hansvons]

9 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

I really dislike the options I have when converting from color, which makes me indecisive and spending more time behind a computer than I like. So, the monochrom stays.

Totally relate to that. That's why I have a custom camera profile for C1 and that's why the Mono makes sense. 

However, I started my film journey because I figured that B&W captured in any digital form is fake because it lacks the grain. Using digital grain is not the same. 

When I learned that development is as easy as pie (scanning is not) I added cine colour stocks because that was how I created images until 2010. And now film photography is my default image-making. 

The bottleneck is the digitisation of your negatives. Common wisdom says that scanning the neg with a DSLR and a (very good) macro lens plus a film holder and a backlight (can be your phone) is the way to go. Unfortunately, the computer and your raw editor will play a crucial role in that game. There’s always the option to outsource all of that but with some experience you’ll get better results doing it by yourself. There’s quite a learning curve, though. 

[hansvons]

3 hours ago, jakontil said:

and good thing is, u cant upgrade like digital way, but may b you will add more to your arsenal 

Absolutely see the no-need-to-upgrade point. But perhaps stopping buying gear for good and investing the money in the image-making process (research, travelling, buying film) will lead to sustainable, creative contentment. I know for sure that chasing the latest and greatest evokes the opposite. 

[Ouroboros]

I stumbled across a nice early brass M4-P in August when I called into Ffordes  to buy a Nokton 35mm f1.4 sc ii.

I put the lens on it and left the shop with both. It was an unplanned purchase but I really like the M4-P and I am always surprised by how similar, apart from the obvious differences of being meterless, framelines, the rewind crank and wind-on lever, it feels to my MP.  The brass construction plays it’s part in that regard.

The bonus is it was less than half the cost of a similar condition M6 with no concerns about potential meter circuit failure  I keep hearing about. Makes a nice partner for my MP

I completely understand the regular comments about how owning multiple cameras can lead to confusion, but all it needs is a bit of self-discipline and decisiveness to take only one camera at a time.

Works for me.

 

[Huss]

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15 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

 

I put the lens on it and left the shop with both. It was an unplanned purchase but I really like the M4-P and I am always surprised by how similar, apart from the obvious differences of being meterless, framelines, the rewind crank and wind-on lever, it feels to my MP.  The brass construction plays it’s part in that regard.

..

 

I thought the M4-P was made out of zinc?  But as long as it is not zitty, I don't think you can tell or feel the difference.  A while ago I handled a perfect condition old M6, and while I knew it was made from zinc, it felt exactly the same as my brass Ms.

[Ouroboros]

7 minutes ago, Huss said:

I thought the M4-P was made out of zinc?  But as long as it is not zitty, I don't think you can tell or feel the difference.  A while ago I handled a perfect condition old M6, and while I knew it was made from zinc, it felt exactly the same as my brass Ms.

Early M4-P's like mine were made with brass top and base plates, later M4-P's were of zinc.

[Matlock]

6 hours ago, Huss said:

I thought the M4-P was made out of zinc?  But as long as it is not zitty, I don't think you can tell or feel the difference.  A while ago I handled a perfect condition old M6, and while I knew it was made from zinc, it felt exactly the same as my brass Ms.

The difference is quite obvious, simply look at the viewfinder surround.

[hansvons]

9 hours ago, Huss said:

A while ago I handled a perfect condition old M6, and while I knew it was made from zinc, it felt exactly the same as my brass Ms.

This. My M4P is brass, my M6 zink. No difference. Both recently CLAed. 

[hoolyproductions]

Am not much of a film shooter these days, but I still have a second-hand M6 (0.85 viewfinder) that I got second hand in 2014 and shot with (almost) exclusively for a couple of years before getting an M240 (which was replaced by an M10 and recently, after a two year hiatus from digital M, an M11).

I did get also an MP sometime in 2014. I think I justified this to myself by the possibility to have two different ISO films simultaneously (and I loved the more classic design paired with the exposure meter).

I sold my MP after a while (I think mainly because I preferred the 0.85 viewfinder - I love 50mm and have didn't have any lenses wider than 35mm), plus the M6 aesthetic 'grew on me'). I haven't been motivated to shoot film for a couple of years but I will take the M6 to the grave with me 😀  

I had a look recently and saw that M6 second-hand prices have more than doubled since I got mine!

<edit>

I ruled out an M7 because IIRC it cannot work without a battery (M6 still works but without the exposure meter)

Edited October 5, 2023 by hoolyproductions

[Huss]

16 hours ago, hansvons said:

This. My M4P is brass, my M6 zink. No difference. Both recently CLAed. 

Yup.  I cannot tell any difference.  They all feel just as good in hand.

[Huss]

13 hours ago, hoolyproductions said:

..

I ruled out an M7 because IIRC it cannot work without a battery (M6 still works but without the exposure meter)

It has mechanical speeds of 1/60 and 1/125, which actually would be able to handle a wide range of exposures given you can change the aperture setting.

Plus, film cameras don't work w/o film and yet we have no issue carrying extra film.  A set of batteries is a fraction of the size and last way longer.

[hoolyproductions]

4 hours ago, Huss said:

It has mechanical speeds of 1/60 and 1/125, which actually would be able to handle a wide range of exposures given you can change the aperture setting.

Plus, film cameras don't work w/o film and yet we have no issue carrying extra film.  A set of batteries is a fraction of the size and last way longer.

Ah yes, now I remember. You are right of course but for me I preferred the simplicity of the M6.

[Huss]

21 minutes ago, hoolyproductions said:

Ah yes, now I remember. You are right of course but for me I preferred the simplicity of the M6.

I get that.

[lmans]

Get the MA...take your photography to a new level and challenge yourself without the 'hint' of anything but the basics. 

[VanDooglz]

Someone suggested, based on your lens preferences, a camera with the 0.85 finder. I wholeheartedly agree. TBH all Leicas are essentially the same, except the M5. The viewfinder is their only meaningfully differentiating feature with traits like magnification and frame lines.

The next question: which M-camera offers a 0.85 finder? Now you're limited to the M7, M6/TTL and MP as far as I know.

In my opinion, a 35mm meterless cameras make zero sense because you're either constantly missing on proper exposure (and relying on your tolerance for meh results) or you're slowing down to medium format shooting pace, which makes - again - no sense whatsoever. If you're constantly busting out a light meter, just shoot a Rolleiflex and enjoy a dramatically better negative.

An M-camera is made to shoot fast, so the aperture-priority mode is a must have feature. Get the M7 with a 0.85x finder.

Edited October 7, 2023 by VanDooglz

[chris_livsey]

Bresson on light meters:

You mustn’t use a light meter, you have to know exactly what, to weigh the light. A cook doesn’t take a scale to know how much salt you should put in a cake. The salt you put to give, to enhance the sugar. It’s intuition, it’s instinctive, and it’s the same thing.

An Interview with Henri Cartier-Bresson from 1958 | PetaPixel

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[logan2z]

3 hours ago, chris_livsey said:

Bresson on light meters:

You mustn’t use a light meter, you have to know exactly what, to weigh the light. A cook doesn’t take a scale to know how much salt you should put in a cake. The salt you put to give, to enhance the sugar. It’s intuition, it’s instinctive, and it’s the same thing.

An Interview with Henri Cartier-Bresson from 1958 | PetaPixel

 

 

Sounds wonderful in theory, but HCB's negatives were apparently very difficult to print, so perhaps his intuition/instincts about light were not really that great 

[Bear]

4 hours ago, chris_livsey said:

Bresson on light meters:

You mustn’t use a light meter, you have to know exactly what, to weigh the light. A cook doesn’t take a scale to know how much salt you should put in a cake. The salt you put to give, to enhance the sugar. It’s intuition, it’s instinctive, and it’s the same thing.

An Interview with Henri Cartier-Bresson from 1958 | PetaPixel

 

 

I definitely weigh the salt I add to my weekly sourdough loaves as well as cookies, pies, and tarts when I find the time to make them. Consistency is extremely important to me in baking haha. But I understand the sentiment